Author Topic: ?  (Read 596 times)

Offline Wilbus

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« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2002, 06:46:55 AM »
Didn't mean they would rip off, 109 flaps wouldn't rip off either, probarly just blow back up.

109 has same problem, although speed difference is not as big, flaps auto retract in 165mph (a speed which is VERY hard to get down to in the first place).

We won't get it though, atleast not from what HT said.
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline Virage

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« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2002, 07:36:07 AM »
you're right,

hispanos sux
50 cal.s sux
jabo load out sux
maneuvering flaps sux
climb sux
speed sux
endurance sux
durability sux

AH's P38 sux

:rolleyes:
JG11

Vater

Offline laz

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« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2002, 09:29:18 AM »
lol.. I "HOPE" all we are complaining about are the dive flaps.  I don't want a freeken speed increase or anything like that... You would see people like HISP, and any of your common n1ktards buzzin around in it, and that would take the fun out of blowing them to toejamteeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee =)

Offline BigCrate

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« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2002, 01:15:53 PM »
Lazer you PUTTZ :) I started this post just to see why HTC hasn't added a early war model P-38 and why the dive flaps didn't do anything. I just posted those speed figures to see if were true or how people felt about em. I just want the dive flaps fixed and a P-38H with B-33 turbos and 1600hp Allisons :)

Cw
=Twin Engined Devils=

Offline laz

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« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2002, 02:03:58 PM »
which brings lazer BACK to the point.. Dive flaps or FM? =) PUTTZ! :P

Offline Tac

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« Reply #35 on: April 07, 2002, 02:04:10 PM »
"Didn't mean they would rip off, 109 flaps wouldn't rip off either, probarly just blow back up"

Yes. Do you know at what speed were they supposed to "blow up"?

BTW, the 38 fowler flaps couldnt blow up. Thus, thats why they would cause wing structure damage (and jam).

:) lazerr, the 38 is well modelled except in the flap department. its the only little thing left. And as to why such simple thing as increasing the flap autoretract to 300mph and adding a 4g nose up pull when dive flaps are deployed at fast speeds (say, 350mph+?) havent been coded in  in so long a time... well, its quite sad imo. :(

"you're right,

hispanos sux // lol.
50 cal.s sux // agree. Id rather have a fantasy loadout of 12 X303 in nose ;)
jabo load out sux // yes it does. 38 could load 2X2k bombs too. not modelled.
maneuvering flaps sux // no, just mismodelled in the autoretract area
climb sux // it rules
speed sux // it rules
endurance sux // it rules
durability sux // its on par with other fighters. And you can still shoot the tails out with a few hits.. you just have to hit them.

AH's P38 sux // until the flaps are fixed, it suxs 50% ;)

Offline Wilbus

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« Reply #36 on: April 07, 2002, 02:06:51 PM »
350Km/h Tac (219mph) was the limit that were tested for etc, of course, like the P38 and all other planes they had some safety margin. 218-220mph would make me a happy man though, it's a 40-50mph difference from now, not as much as the P38 has but it would make it possible to actually use flaps in the 109 during turn fights.
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline laz

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« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2002, 02:12:05 PM »
which brings lazer BACK AGAIN to point "A"  -Stop your biatching- ;)  Its a game, they are flaps...Before we look at that.. Lets take a peek at n1k "E" holding.  Heres a situation.  P38/n1k merge coalt/coE.. P38 goes into shallow climb.. Nik yanks "His stick" ;) and gets going in the same direction p38 is heading and proceeds to follow p38 up, and actually close the gap.. While the 38 just hangs there.. and when 38 noses down... Oh look, theres the n1k climbing away.. d200 from your p38 showing no stall characteristics.  Hmmm.... =) Am I the only one that notices this "Interesting" Behavior from nik?

Offline lord dolf vader

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« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2002, 02:38:20 PM »
you are approximatly the 500th person to not this . on the bullitan board.

Offline lord dolf vader

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« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2002, 02:40:28 PM »
tac said

"the 38 is well modelled except in the flap department"


you think they have the dive flaps right ?

seems like they do verrrrry little in my book

Offline J_A_B

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« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2002, 02:42:23 PM »
Wilbus, why would you WANT to use the 109's flaps in a dogfight?    They're split flaps that serve as little more than an airbrake.   Even if you could deploy them at faster speeds, it'd be counter-productive to do so.  

J_A_B

Offline Esme

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« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2002, 03:01:20 PM »
Might some of the variations in speed figures published be because instead of giving maximum achievable speed by a factory-fresh well-serviced plane they're giving typical maximum speeds for planes actually in service that are a bit worn, and operating in all kinds of weather?

Lots of the figures one sees for maximal performance of aircraft need to be treated carefully, for instance maximum altitude (particularly in bombers). Whilst a plane might well be capable of struggling up to the published altitude, in practice it would generally operate at much lower altitudes, for various reasons:
- time taken to get up there (and vulnerability whilst clmbing)
- aircraft loadout
- wear and tear on the aircraft
- temperature at altitude - it gets damned cold pretty quickly as one climbs, and at 25-30,000ft is WELL sub-zero, into double figures sub-zero IIRC. Think of the effects on the machine in terms of icing (which can coat the wing, making it perform ess well, and also increase drag dramatically), and on the pilot (in those planes without heated cockpits

As a by the by, the Ju88A4, which I fly a lot, has a published ceiling of 8-9 kilometres, but most raids flown by the LW seem to have gone in much lower than this, seldom being over 6km (20,000ft).  As it happens, in my time in War Birds, I found that for general mission planning purposes, we simply did not need performance and climb data for the Ju88A4 for altitudes over 6km, as the time taken to climb higher, and thus greater fuel load that needed to be carried, didnt justify the time and effort. As in real life, we always planned to get the job done with the minimum load we needed, so as to obtain best performance, and traying to take a heavily laden Ju88 up to the limit of where she'll climb usually is simply not worth doing (assuming that the simulation reflects real life tolerably accurately, which RL the performance figures Ive seen seem to indicate s the case). I've also read a statement (apologies, cannot recall where) by a US WW2 fighter pilot that flew in Europe that he never flew any mssion that went much over 15,000ft - which surprised the heck out of me, but I'm not going to argue with someone who did the job for real!

Also, bear in mind that AH doesnt yet model engine wear and tear. If it did, you would NOT be able to run at 100% throttle all the time, as a lot of folk do, because your engine would overheat and sieze.  Full throttle was generally only used on takeoff and initial climbout, and (in the case of fighters) when about to engage in combat.  Even the 400mph+ fighters would often be doing nearer 300mph a lot of the time... - if the truckload of stuff Ive read over the years is anything to go by (I dont claim I am definitely correct; just that if I am not, then I've come across a great many incorrect sources (and there ARE quite a few such about).

Personally I like the P38, except for its poor downward visibility (be interesting to know what actual pilots of the plane thought on that subject).  I fear P38s more than most other planes, if theyre on my tail. On the other hand if I'm on a P38 tail, it IS a rather nice big target! (being a lousy shot, I like all the help I can get! ):-} )

Agreed on those dive/manouvre flaps. We could do with better representation of them on all planes that had such things, AND modelling of engines siezing if used flat-out for too long, IMO...

Esme

Offline Wilbus

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« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2002, 03:14:59 PM »
Uhmmm Jab, they were used as combat flaps during the war, and the few times you mannage to get them down in AH they help pretty much.

What exactly do you mean with "split" flaps?
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline Tac

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« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2002, 03:19:21 PM »
Vader: When I say flaps I mean both the dive flaps and the fowleer flaps :)


wilbus: cool, then they should autoretract (blow up) at that speed then. Though as pointed, why would you want to use them in a fight? I personally find the flaps in the 109 to make it extremely unstable on a turning fight.. my 109f4 becomes a flippingschmitt if I dare to lower those things. :p

"Also, bear in mind that AH doesnt yet model engine wear and tear. If it did, you would NOT be able to run at 100% throttle all the time, as a lot of folk do, because your engine would overheat and sieze. Full throttle was generally only used on takeoff and initial climbout, and (in the case of fighters) when about to engage in combat."

Aye, I would love to have engine overheat modelled. But that may come in the long term, right now its not a serious issue as everyone uses it and there is no downside to it in any plane.

Lazerr: check the n1k thread started in the other forum about that. N1k-2j does not have its auto-flaps modelled, if they did the n1k would be a very different ride (added drag and nose up pull from flaps).

Personally I find the flap issues on the 38 to be a major concern, as its the one and only plane that relies on its flaps almost completely. It would be as if the 190D9 or G10 were modelled without any WEP at all. Only in the 38's case, it would be as if the D9 and G10 had the wep modelled, but it would only work if the plane was below 250mph and it would stop working at speeds higher than that, and the WEP would kick in automatically when at slow speeds (imagine you turning a G10 at 120mph and having the WEP kick in all the sudden... spin!).
« Last Edit: April 07, 2002, 03:23:34 PM by Tac »

Offline J_A_B

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« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2002, 04:09:53 PM »
"What exactly do you mean with "split" flaps?"

Split flaps = flaps where only the lower half of the wing surface moves.   This design creates much extra drag (good for landing) but only a small amount of extra lift.    

In combat, split flaps should be useful only for keeping the plane under control in extreme low-speed maneuvers, like getting over the top of a slow loop--which you can already use them for in AH.   At higher speeds it would serve little purpose except to cause you to bleed energy badly.  

J_A_B