My Perk System: Comments please

[HFMudd]

You only get 200 extra for your $20?

[lazs2]

what  I think is that.... you are still trying to devise a system where some people will be able to fly vastly superior planes against others who cannot or won't fly them.   You are trying to make sure that every fight has the potential to be ruined by some UFO hovering around the edges of it.  and....

I can't see how any perk system could make early war planes popular.   People whpo hate early war planes will be pissed and ones who like early war planes will be assured that at least one guy in the fight is in a plane light years ahead of his capability wise.  lose/lose  No amount of "thinking it out" will help.   It's like socialism... sounds good, is unworkable and no amount of tinkering will fix it.   You will just end up with high taxes and bad teeth in the end.

Mandoble.... pick the perk days at random every month.   You may miss a perk day or so once in a while but.... You will still be able to fly perk planes till you puke.... way more than you are able to now.
lazs

[LLv34_Camouflage]

Originally posted by lazs2
what  I think is that.... you are still trying to devise a system where some people will be able to fly vastly superior planes against others who cannot or won't fly them.  

The only way the current MA differs from what you just described, is that many of the late war monsters are not perked. This allows all players to fly a plane that is just as superior than a perk plane, for no cost.  This is not an optimal solution, as it results in a late war MA.  It is frustrating to fly an early war plane there.

Also, there is little sense in paying a crap load of points for a plane, that is better than an unperked plane by only a small margin.  With the current late war planes being unperked, the perk system is not used even close to its full potential.

All I'm trying to suggest is an arena, where early- and mid war planes would be more common. Those who want to fly late war planes would have to pay perk points to do so.

What I'd like to see, is either a rolling perk set or some kind of a perk system where most of the late war planes are perked at reasonable cost, encouraging people to fly the early- and mid war planes. Ideally, a couple of kills in a lesser plane should be enough to earn a ride in a cheap perk plane.  A good example would be the Spitfire.  A kill or two in the SpitI would earn enough points for the SpitV, a couple more would be needed for the SpitIX.  The "monster" planes should be perked higher.  This is only an example, more so of the rolling perk set.  If a "static" perk system was introduced, planes up to about mid-43 should be unperked, imho.

You are trying to make sure that every fight has the potential to be ruined by some UFO hovering around the edges of it.  [/B]

How does this differ from the situation there is in the MA right now?  I'm not sure where you're getting at with this comment. Since when has flying smart been a crime?  The system that I'm proposing would give all the player groups a chance. Not an equal one, but nevertheless, all groups would be able to have fun.  The current system leaves little room for the early war fans.

If a new perk system is enabled, it should make early war planes more common. I might be wrong, but I do believe the general consensus is that an early war environment creates more enjoyable fights. And if some guy decides to take out a late war monster, he will be at risk of loosing his perk points, so he will fly his plane more carefully. Right now, a player can fly his LA7 into any fight without having to care about anything. Which system would create more enjoyable gameplay?

The early- and mid war lovers would have fun flying their planes against similar opposition, without having to worry about the hordes of La7s, Doras and P51s.  The late war lovers would have to spend their perk points, but in return have fun shooting down the early war planes. Also, the bomber pilots would have more chances to survive in the arena.

Sure, with the perk system, you might see more players hovering around the edges of the fight, shooting down any player that tries to disengage or extend.  Let me remind you that the finnish pilots did exactly this against La5s, Yak9s and even La7s, in the summer of -44.  Flying Brewsters.

I can't see how any perk system could make early war planes popular.   People whpo hate early war planes will be pissed and ones who like early war planes will be assured that at least one guy in the fight is in a plane light years ahead of his capability wise.  lose/lose  No amount of "thinking it out" will help.   It's like socialism... sounds good, is unworkable and no amount of tinkering will fix it.   You will just end up with high taxes and bad teeth in the end.
[/B]

Always the optimist.

People who hate early war planes can fly their late war planes at any time of the month, by paying the perk points for it.  Nexx's system would give all players some "start points", so that they could fly their late ride right from the start.  Stupid flying is penalized, but that is only good, imho.

Those who like early war planes would surely be happy of a new arena setup, where early and mid war planes are more common! Sure, they'd whine about the late war monsters, but they sure would (should?) be happier than now!

Like I said, the CT would be a good place to experiment on the perk system.  If HTC wants to leave the MA as a late war arena, fine, but I hope they would atleast consider an alternative.

Best regards,

Camo

[lazs2]

camo.. I see your point.  the arena has become more and more late war centric.   I have allways felt that there is no place for pee51's, la7's, d9's etc. in it. but..  I fly the -1a   that plane would most likely not be perked by yur system...  I would slaughter early war planes and ruin the game for them.  If it was perked....  you would have to perk pretty deeply into the set...  I mean, I'm one of the few flying the thing as a fighter now!   If you perk that deeply into the set the late and mid war fans will be pissed..

Suppose you are a casual player.... you will be slaughtered because you will be flying early war planes... there will ALLWAYS be late war planes in the game.   I will allways have a toejamload of perks and so will a lot of guys including you.   We will have a huge advantage that will ruin gameplay.

if you make mid war planes cheap enough so that the new/casual player can earn one then.... I will allways be in a plane that will be able to ruin early war fights and if you lower the late war perks then there will allways be someone in a late war plane to ruin my fights.

If early war planes are so fun (and they are to me) why not have an RPS with a few days in the beggining for early war planes, a few weeks for mid war and a few days for late war?  mix up the days so that people aren't left out due to scheduleing.

What is so wrong about giving everyone equal plane choice?

I would settle for the modified RPS but... I personally would love a small "early war area" on every map where they could fight unmolested by latter war planes.

I think it's time to try something completely new like that.  I believe that the "perk" system has shot it's load.... painted itself into a corner early war wise.
lazs

[LLv34_Camouflage]

Originally posted by lazs2
camo.. I see your point.  the arena has become more and more late war centric.   I have allways felt that there is no place for pee51's, la7's, d9's etc. in it.

...

If you perk that deeply into the set the late and mid war fans will be pissed..
 

The fact remains that the late war monsters are in the MA and they will stay in the MA.  I believe HTC has said many times that they will not introduce a rolling plane set. Therefore a new system, that allows late war planes in balanced numbers, is needed. A rolling perk set would be the optimal solution. That will not please everyone, but is a better solution than the system in the MA now. All this is just my opinion, of course.

Suppose you are a casual player.... you will be slaughtered because you will be flying early war planes... there will ALLWAYS be late war planes in the game.   I will allways have a toejamload of perks and so will a lot of guys including you.   We will have a huge advantage that will ruin gameplay.

if you make mid war planes cheap enough so that the new/casual player can earn one then.... I will allways be in a plane that will be able to ruin early war fights and if you lower the late war perks then there will allways be someone in a late war plane to ruin my fights.
[/B]

By casual player you mean a player that only flies about a couple of hours a week? If the "start perk points" would be introduced, the casual player would, most probably, have enough points to fly perk planes for the most of the tour, since he only flies a couple of hours a week.

It would be interesting to see how many players really have a crapload of perk points, and how do/would they use them? My guess is that most of the players are the "casual" players, therefore for the majority of the players the perk system would work fine.  Assuming that only a minority of players have huge loads of perk points, and these pilots are generally the better sticks anyway, it really wouldn't disturb the arena balance too much.

If early war planes are so fun (and they are to me) why not have an RPS with a few days in the beggining for early war planes, a few weeks for mid war and a few days for late war?  mix up the days so that people aren't left out due to scheduleing.
[/B]

Like I mentioned above, a rolling plane set will probably not be introduced. I agree with that: in the MA, the players should be allowed to fly their preferred ride anytime.  But they should have to pay the price for that.

What is so wrong about giving everyone equal plane choice?
[/B]

Equal plane choice. Sounds good, but is a double edged sword.  As we've seen, the system in the current MA really doesnt work well.  If all planes are equally free, most players will choose the best performing plane. It is a late-war-frenzy out there.  Therefore, a system is needed to regulates this.

I would settle for the modified RPS but... I personally would love a small "early war area" on every map where they could fight unmolested by latter war planes.
[/B]

If the bigger 512x512 maps are brought into the MA, maybe there would be room for a "lazs' sand box" in one corner.

The CT should be a compromise until a solution for the MA comes available?

I think it's time to try something completely new like that.  I believe that the "perk" system has shot it's load.... painted itself into a corner early war wise.
[/B]

The perk system is not doing well in its current form, but like I said earlier, the full capabilities of it haven't been used yet.

Camo

[TMASTadon]

Gosh guys! It's amazing what a hot topic and debated issue perking is. My own limited understanding of perking is that it is a tool meant to keep a plane from totaling dominating the MA. As it is now I see no plane in there that dominates. Yes, there are tons of spits and quite a few La7's but neither of them dominate the arena. But this talk of "Forcing" or "Encouraging" people to fly certain planes or plane sets??? I'm not really concerned about it because HTC certainly seems to have their act together 100% so I'm fairly confident they would never do anything to "FORCE" anyone to fly certain planes. Keep some planes from becoming too dominate in the arena but I dont see any plane in there right now that meets that criteria. Lots of spits? Yes. Do they dominate the arena? No. I remember in AW there seemed to be a cycle of the most popular planes. In PAC it was the n1k, then the F6, then the Ki-84. When it went to one arena the sky seemed to be full of FW's & F4u's. I came to loathe FW's because I didnt like flying them but I could never catch them So I just did my best to learn what they could and couldnt do and dealt with them as best I could.

Now for thoughts about early war planes, the only viable solution I see there (because you cant go changing the MA to suit some who would like to see more early war planes flying) is to have another arena that is strictly pre-1943 planes. Do this in CT? Fine, but dont go trying to limit the number of late war planes in MA so that there will be early war planes flying around. The MA is not a combat simulation, its a Flight Sim GAME. Scenario's are more Combat Simulations and I very much enjoy Scenarios. Scenarios are where you REALLY begin to get a feel and sense of WWII aerial combat. Scenario's are great and wonderful at letting people expierence a completely different dimension of AH.

For the most part leave MA alone and considering the track record HTC has of providing their customers (yes, I'm sorry to say thats even us dweebs who choose to fly planes that some may not consider to be REAL planes in MA) I believe they will. Lower some perk costs from 60 to say 30? Ok. Lower the 262 from 200? No its where it needs to be.

I have my own personal approach to how I play in MA. I dont worry, fret over or get upset over how someone else chooses to play the game. I dont tell anyone else what plane to fly or how to fly and I expect the same respect in return. If someone wants to try to ram me (as one guy did on 3 seperate passes the other night) or a group wants to gang me, hey thats just part of the game. I can't very well stop them or make them fly differently. Berating someone, trying to demean or degrade them because of the plane they choose to fly is not only showing a decided lack of class and character but a certain level of arrogance as well. I actually feel sorry for the poor guy who's never played an online sim before and wanders into AH. He sees this endless list of planes and doesnt know what 90% of them are. He finally happens upon a spit, La7, n1k or something he can fly and have some fun with and then discovers that he's being called names because of his choice of plane?? I often wonder how many potential AH gamers are lost due to this.

Ok may the flaming begin

[8ball]

The fact is that more people are registering more now than ever before.  When I played a year ago the MA was considered busy when there was 200 people in it.  I see no problems with the current perk system, it allows me to fly the planes that I want to when I want to fly them. Of course some planes need to be perked to maintain stability in the game but the current system works fine.  If the game was modified to prevent me from flying the planes that I like (which btw are not popular by any means, but still have higher eny values) I would no longer see a reason to pay for this game.  I love the way the MA works right now, especially the new strat system.  Don't mess it up by screwing with something that works.

[LLv34_Camouflage]

Good post TMASTadon!

I just checked some stats from the previous tour.  Even though statistics are just numbers, sometimes they can show what the general situation is.

Here is the top five, sorted by their percentage of total kills+deaths in the MA.  K+D gives the best idea, imho, how common they are in the area.


Spitfire Mk IX: 7.88%
P-51D: 6.51%
N1K2: 5.86%
Ostwind: 4.81%
La-7: 4.69%

Sum of these: 29.75%


Lets see the other end of the list, not considering perked rides:


Hurricane Mk I: 0.29%   
C.202: 0.29%   
P-47D-11: 0.25%   
Fw 190F-8: 0.19%   
Hurricane IID: 0.15%

Sum of these: 1.17%


On average, in the MA, there are 25 "top five" planes for each "last five" plane.

Keep some planes from becoming too dominate in the arena but I dont see any plane in there right now that meets that criteria.
[/B]

Look at the numbers above.  Then turn your sentence upside down: Could the perk system maybe be used to keep a complete planeset from being practically extinct in the MA?

Now for thoughts about early war planes, the only viable solution I see there (because you cant go changing the MA to suit some who would like to see more early war planes flying) is to have another arena that is strictly pre-1943 planes. Do this in CT?
[/B]

Who says the MA can't be changed? And before that happens, yes, CT would be a good place to experiment on this. The CT, however, is Axis vs Allies, which is a completely different ballgame than the "free for all" MA.

For the most part leave MA alone and considering the track record HTC has of providing their customers (yes, I'm sorry to say thats even us dweebs who choose to fly planes that some may not consider to be REAL planes in MA) I believe they will.
[/B]

Yes, I agree that for the most part the MA should be left alone. But I just find it odd, that at the present moment there is little encouragement to fly the early war planes in the MA.  Yes yes, they are great for the scenarios and can be flown competitively there, but I think it would be great if there was some motivation to fly them in the MA as well.

I have my own personal approach to how I play in MA. I dont worry, fret over or get upset over how someone else chooses to play the game. I dont tell anyone else what plane to fly or how to fly and I expect the same respect in return. If someone wants to try to ram me (as one guy did on 3 seperate passes the other night) or a group wants to gang me, hey thats just part of the game. I can't very well stop them or make them fly differently.
[/B]

I totally understand and respect your approach. I also have my own ideas, my little vision of a perfect online sim, and AH has all the potential to be that. It is pretty damn close already.  

However, in its current form, the latewar MA leaves things to wish for. A better balanced perk system would make it a lot better, imho. But then again, it hasn't been tried in AH yet, so who knows how it might turn out.  It would definately be worth a try!

Nobody else can "force/encourage" people to fly specific planes than HTC. They can do it by changing the way the arenas are set up. As an individual member of the community, I can share my views, how I'd like to see the settings changed. These are my suggestions on how to develop the game.

Camo

[lazs2]

let's leave the CT out of this.... It is axis vs allied and pretty much doomed.   It does however show how oorly a lopsided arena with no parity or choice does

The MA... The MA and the perk system work perfectly... so long as you like late/mid late war planes.   You won't be too outclassed if you like mid war planes and the perk system will keep the uber perk rides rare enough to simply be anoying and not crippling.   If you like late war planes... better yet... you can hunt and kill with impunity.   Is that a good arena?   Well.... I believe that for a large percentage of the players it is.   That's why it works.

Where it falls down is in the early war planes... If you like the early war planes the perk system has nothing for you.   It also falls down in that it makes viable plane choices in the mid/late war set..... few... If we are honest wih ourselves we will admit that we are starting with a huge advantage simply by choosing one of the several "better" non perked rides...  D9's Lag7, pee 51 etc.   You can't get these "better plane fans" to fly planes that they will suck in.

What we are seeing is that the need for some seperation is more and more apparent as the plneset grows but (viable) plane choice narrows.    we need seperation between early, mid and late war planes.   Perk has reached it's limit.   Like I said... It's like socialism...  It's not that it hasn't been done right yet.. its that it cant be done right..  like socialism, yu can tweak and change all you want but all you will get in the end is high taxes and bad dental care.   the planeset has outgrown the "perk" system.

seperate arenas don't work and RPS's are too painful..  The guys who won't fight without an advantage (i only lilke pee 51's and lag7's and my grandpaw fleww em etc.) will simply stay away when theirs is not available.

Rather than "lazs sandbox"... an "area" arena would allow anyone to fly any plane he liked...  It would mean that he could fly early war planes against their peers without some late war "fan" B&Zing him to death with impunity.   Late war fans would get to prove their "prowess" against like minded players and mid war planes could do the same.
lazs

[BNM]

Perk points should be determind strickly by K/D ratio. As it is a guy that flies 2 hours a week has A LOT less perk points than a guy who flies 2 hours a night. The guy who flies 100 hours and get 3 kills to every death and lands more kills should get more perk points than the guy who flies 4000 hours and gets a kill every 4 deaths and rarely lands. Also the perks should be reset to 0 after every tour.

This would make it alot more interesting and would cause more early planes to be used in the beginning of tours for earning more perks faster. There'd be no perked planes either for a while.

That's MHO but past this I'd have to agree with TMAST. I think HTC is doing an excellent job and I say more power to them.

[lazs2]

bnm... the fact remains that all early war plane contests will be ruined and that anyone who flys an early war plane would be a martyr..

I agree that HTC is dointg a great job if you realize and admit that the vast majority of the players like mid or mid late war planes.   The perk system as it is let's the real wussies feel that they have a chance to fly their fantasy planes but keeps em so rare that they don't ruin the arena.   So long as early war planes can be ignored the perk system as it is will work.    When early war planes can no longer be ignored (we get a lot more of em) then something else will have to be implemented.
lazs

[BNM]

lazs2: "all early war plane contests will be ruined"

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this?

If you mean that furballing in an old plane and getting bounced from a midwar or perk plane, I sympathize with you but that is not because of plane choice, that comes from bad SA. It wouldn't matter if you furballed in an F-15 if someone from outside B-n-Zs you while your low and slow there's nothing you can do about it and you have noone to blame but yourself.

On the other hand I understand what you're trying to say (I think).  You would like to see and I'd agree an arena of just the early war planeset so those who like to fly them could without perks flying into you at 500+. To me it seems a waste of a lot of hard work (art, flight models, etc...) on the early planes that don't get flown much, if at all in the MA.

That's my $0.02

[lazs2]

So... bnm.... perhaps I don't understand you?   Your reasoning would seem say that having oh, 25% 262's in the arena would not spoil the fights for the early and mid war guys nor would it change gameplay and that if you died to a 262 in that arena then it would be your own fault for..... fighting other planes instead of dodging?   Or.... are you saying that dodging superior planes is just as fun as actually fighting your peers?   Or.... is fun not the right word here?   Perhaps sims should not be "fun"?  
lazs

[BNM]

lazs2: "So... bnm.... perhaps I don't understand you? Your reasoning would seem say that having oh, 25% 262's in the arena would not spoil the fights for the early and mid war guys nor would it change gameplay"

Not sure what arena you play in but the MA I play in I've never seen over maybe a couple 262s total while playing 3-4 hours at a time.

lazs2: "and that if you died to a 262 in that arena then it would be your own fault for..... fighting other planes instead of dodging?"

Yes. It sucks... but that's how it works.

lazs2: "Or.... are you saying that dodging superior planes is just as fun as actually fighting your peers? Or.... is fun not the right word here? Perhaps sims should not be "fun"?"

Fun is in the eye of the beholder. I like fighting superior planes sometimes. It is a challenge. Defeating one is just that much sweeter. I like fighting equal type planes sometimes. When my flying is about par and not doing that great. Also like fighting inferior planes on an off night when I'm too tired or for some reason my flying is a bit off.

As I said in an earlier post, I think an arena with 'just' early planes would be fun for those who like that. For me it's all fun and defeats are simply a learning experience. If you aren't having fun (and from many of your posts I've read you don't seem to be) then why play???

[lazs2]

I am having fun but the price of fun is vigilance.   The enemies of fun would make the arena more lopsided.   You apear to agree that more perk planes in the arena would be a good thing and I believe that a fair game is a more fun game.  

The less perk points floating around the more fun the arena is.
lazs