Author Topic: why does 109G10 climb so bad??  (Read 3619 times)

Offline funkedup

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why does 109G10 climb so bad??
« Reply #75 on: April 22, 2002, 03:36:38 PM »
As far as the relative importance of induced drag and zero-lift drag:  Best climb rates for a prop fighter occur at a quite low airspeed, below the minimum drag speed.  This is in the regime where induced drag becomes more significant than zero lift drag.  

As far as climb angle:  For non-maneuvering constant speed flight, climb angles for WW2 prop fighters are quite shallow at best sustained climb conditions.  The angle is only about 15 degrees, which means only about a 4-6% lift reductions due to climb angle.  

Induced drag is still going to be the dominant source of drag on the aircraft.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2002, 04:00:19 PM by funkedup »

Offline Wmaker

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why does 109G10 climb so bad??
« Reply #76 on: April 22, 2002, 04:27:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by funkedup


Induced drag is quite significant in that speed range.

Only about 60% of the engine's power goes towards increasing energy (climbing) at best climb speed.  Where is the other 40% of the power going?  Prop inefficiency and drag.  You can't just ignore 40% of the power requirement and expect to answer why one plane outperforms the other.  At least not if you are actually interested in answering the question objectively...
'

My comment about the drag came from reading about earlier 109s and how the lower engine power/top speeds "allowed" them to be un-aerodynamic until the E-series. DB 601A had enough power to bring 109E into speeds which encouraged the re-design of the cowlings to the F-series. Always wondered this a bit myself since more aerodynamic car goes faster than the not-so-aerodynamic and the speeds are still far from 310mph for example. :) So right now I agree that drag is a factor. That's one of the reasons why climb curves of these planes don't have a their peak at the sea level where the air is the most dense.

Funked, you are yet to hear an FM-whine from me...I'm pretty sure you never will. Search this board and try to find a single whine by me...you can't find one. I'm not going to try to convince you since I'm pretty sure you won't believe me on this but I'm really trying remain objective on this kind of stuff since love aircraft (especially WWII aircraft) in general. I find "my plane is better than yours-stuff" ridiculous and childish. You know, when I was a kid (ok well, smaller kid :D) my favourite fighter plane was P-40. I just loved the way it looked...still do. :) In short I love to discuss this kind of stuff I just hope people could leave their agendas and biases to the door.

So back to the G-10.

I'm assuming AH's G-10 has DB-605DCM engine because of the profile drawing (it's has the same markings as the one in AH) and because of its top speed (440-445mph according to the speed gauge). Depending on source its out put is listed between 2000-2200hp.

Here's comparision between G-2 and G-10 in AH:

G-2: power/weight: 0.216 hp/lbs. climb on the deck: about 4100ft/min (AH chart)

G-10: power/weight: 0.270 hp/lbs. climb on the deck: about 4600ft/min (AH chart)

Point of this comparision is that AH's G-2 climb chart is fairly close to what I have about real G-2's climb test. And even though G-10 produces more drag than G-2 the difference very small compared to the difference between G-10 and Spitfire. Prop between G-10 and G-2 is also very similar...G-10 has broader blades because of the added power.

So, 25% increase in power loading gives 12% (500ft/min) increase in climb rate. I dunno maybe so...

For the record, I'm very happy with the G-10 as it is. If something is wrong I hope it will get fixed...I doubt it tough...G-10 has been in the game since the beginning I think pyro would have allready changed it if something was off.
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Offline Widewing

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why does 109G10 climb so bad??
« Reply #77 on: April 22, 2002, 04:31:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by LLv34_Camouflage


End of the third paragraph:

"The engine is a Daimler-Benz DB605, driving a VDM variable pitch propeller which rotates clockwise when viewed from behind."

Variable Pitch = Constant Speed.  Right?

Camo


Variable pitch does not necessarily mean constant speed. There have been many propellers that had a manual (be it electric or hydraulic) means of varying the pitch, but were not constant speed props.

I believe that the VDM propeller had several different pitch settings, but was not constant speed.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline funkedup

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why does 109G10 climb so bad??
« Reply #78 on: April 22, 2002, 04:42:46 PM »
Quote
love to discuss this kind of stuff I just hope people could leave their agendas and biases to the door.


Amen Wmaker.  

Here's what I think about G-10.  This is my best guess:

HTC probably have some German flight test data showing the performance we have in AH.

The lb/hp stuff comparison with earlier 109G doesn't work out because the G-10 has too much motor for the prop.  Or the actual power ratings of the plane tested are not what everybody thinks.

« Last Edit: April 22, 2002, 04:52:09 PM by funkedup »

Offline Wmaker

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why does 109G10 climb so bad??
« Reply #79 on: April 22, 2002, 04:53:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by funkedup
The lb/hp stuff comparison with earlier 109G doesn't work out because the G-10 has too much motor for the prop.  Or the actual power ratings of the plane tested are not what everybody thinks.


Wouldn't it be VERY bad engineering to design bigger engine (more cubic inches) with more power...install into an airframe with allready high wing loading and not to have a prop to take advantage of the added power? I think G-10 had prop with broader blades for a reason.

Quote
Originally posted by funkedup
Amen Wmaker.  


That involves you too Funked!! ;) :D

« Last Edit: April 22, 2002, 05:05:59 PM by Wmaker »
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Offline HoHun

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why does 109G10 climb so bad??
« Reply #80 on: April 22, 2002, 05:15:25 PM »
Hi Funked,

>Induced drag is still going to be the dominant source of drag on the aircraft.

Climb rate is dominated by the power to weight ratio.

As I demonstrated above, you can increase drag by 50% and see your climb rate drop by just 12% for the Me 109K-4.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline funkedup

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why does 109G10 climb so bad??
« Reply #81 on: April 22, 2002, 05:28:13 PM »
BTW if you look at the HTC chart for the G-10 and carefully measure the scale of the pixels, the peak climb rate is 4786 fpm.

Offline funkedup

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why does 109G10 climb so bad??
« Reply #82 on: April 22, 2002, 05:38:50 PM »
Hohun:

Quote
Climb rate is dominated by the power to weight ratio.


Obviously.  
But that is not equivalent to "Climb rate is solely a function of power to weight ratio."

Quote
As I demonstrated above, you can increase drag by 50% and see your climb rate drop by just 12% for the Me 109K-4.


I didn't check all of your calcs but that sounds about right.  

But the whole point of this thread is small variations in climb rate.  Variations on the order of 10-15%.  A variation of "just 12%" is exactly what this thread is all about.  The difference between the AH G-10 (4786 fpm) and a nice fat figure like 5300 fpm is "only" 11%.

A little parasite drag here, a little induced drag here, a little prop efficiency here, and you can fully explain the variations that Niklas pointed out.  No need to accuse RAF or HTC of error or dishonesty.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2002, 05:48:03 PM by funkedup »

Offline funkedup

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why does 109G10 climb so bad??
« Reply #83 on: April 22, 2002, 06:11:54 PM »
Hmmm 1800 hp theory is interesting.  I don't know much about different DB605 variants.  

Seems like 1800 hp would explain the 4786 fpm climb rate.

What are the power ratings for G-2 and G-6?  Using the cubic drag power approximation, can somebody work out how much speed increase we could expect with 1800 hp in those airframes?

E.g. Bf 109G-2
S/L ~340 mph (HTC chart), 1500 hp (HP figure I'm making up, don't know actual rating)

Increase to 1800 hp would give approximately 340 * (1800/1500)^(1/3) = 361 mph.

361 is pretty dang close to the HTC chart for the G-10.

So if my G-2 HP guess is correct, this seems to back up Wells boost argument and Ho-Hun's climb argument for an 1800 HP G-10 in AH.

If it's only 1800 hp then this points even more strongly to the K-4 being a good perk addition to the LW plane set.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2002, 06:23:31 PM by funkedup »

Offline niklas

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why does 109G10 climb so bad??
« Reply #84 on: April 22, 2002, 06:16:54 PM »
Quote
Prop designs for climb or speed, the never ending problem gets much worse with more HP.


True hitech. What do you think, was the tempest designed for speed or climb? Was the 109 in itīs lifetime well known also for climbrate or only for topspeed?
Actually the germans were the first who recognized that a prop designed for climb improves very much climbrate with a little loss of speed. If it helps you, a german prop test i have says the efficiency tops out for a 109K at 135m/s near ground (~490km/h), raising to ~150m/s at higher altititudes. This is imo not a design for topspeed only.

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Just curious anyone every think what happens to thrust when the prop airfoil stalls? And hence why the padle blade was devloped?

ok and who developed paddle blades first? Again, search for pictures of the 109R /209 world record machine, it was able to handle 2770PS with a ~3m 3-blade propeller.
I donīt think that someone would have installed a power system that couldnīt be used because the prop was not suitable. That doesnīt make sense.
The decision to take a 5-bladed prop for the spit14 may have had other reasons. The longer nose of the Griffon made the space between prop and ground smaller during takeoff and landings, so they were forced to reduce diameter. Furthermore - not sure here - a 4-bladed one may cause oscillations during sharp manoevering. At least a symmetrical 2-bladed one causes torque moments during manoevering, the assymetrical 3-bladed one not, and maybe those effects are back for a symmetrical 4-bladed one. So "maybe" this were also reasons to switch over to a smaller assymetrical 5-bladed propeller. It was also clear that the Griffon could be soon boosted to  much more than 2000hp, so maybe it was a decission for the future too.

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Or about such simple things as the effect of the prop to eng gear ratio?

basically a question of altitude. You simulate obviously not the D engine with the bigger 603 charger but the first 1550ps basis variant, so the ratio should be the normal 1:1.625. Only for the true high altitude variants the ratio was changed to stay away from high prop tip mach numbers.
Actually the propeller of the spit14 runs with lower rpm, so especially near ground the propeller of the G10 should have the advantage.

btw should you simulate a 2000ps G10 then the power to weight advantage near ground compared to a spit14 is more than 20%.

niklas

Offline Naudet

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why does 109G10 climb so bad??
« Reply #85 on: April 22, 2002, 06:16:58 PM »
Just a short sidenote on Supongos request.

Yes there are performance tests from the LW containing data on allied birds.
I saw them today.
There publication is limited and i can't afford to buy them. Also you get no allowance to publish them once you have them.
But you can find them in Freiburg Archive in Germany.

And if we would ever build a sim just around those numbers, you would hear the allied cries up to the moon.

Its just a completely wrong concept to trust allied data sheets more than the original data sheets from the manufactures.


Niklas&HoHun, if you are interested were you can get original factory data on the 109er email me to LNhome@gmx.net. I will give you the email of the guy in germany that has all this documents in his private archive (roughly 16,000 original documents).

Offline AKSWulfe

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why does 109G10 climb so bad??
« Reply #86 on: April 22, 2002, 06:20:02 PM »
If the G10 gets anymore of a boost in climb performance, that bad boy needs to get perked.
-SW

Offline funkedup

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why does 109G10 climb so bad??
« Reply #87 on: April 22, 2002, 06:21:08 PM »
Using the "60%" rule, 1800 hp would give a 7500 lb G-10 a 4752 fpm climb rate.  Pretty damn close to the HTC chart also!

I think Wells and Hohun are on to something.


BTW

This is also a very similar weight and hp to the Spitfire LF IX, which also had peak climb rate ~4700 fpm.

Extending "60% rule" to the Spitfire XIV with 8475 lb and 5000 fpm, shaft power required is ~2150 hp.

It's common for Spitfire books to report only military power ratings, not combat power ratings.  For instance LF IX always shows up as 1580 hp in books, when the actual combat power was about 1800 hp.

So I wonder if "2035 hp Merlin 65" had a bit higher combat rating.  I have some photocopies from a book with all the combat power ratings for Merlins, Griffons, and Sabres, and I will check it out.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2002, 06:38:17 PM by funkedup »

Offline funkedup

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why does 109G10 climb so bad??
« Reply #88 on: April 22, 2002, 06:29:13 PM »
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Its just a completely wrong concept to trust allied data sheets more than the original data sheets from the manufactures.


Even when Allied tests show equal or better performance than German tests?  Even when Allied sheets are based on actual flying while some German sheets are based on calculations only?
Did you know that most Allied aircraft in AH are not based on manufacturer's data?  Do you understand why it might be more reliable to trust the customer's evaluation of a product over the manufacturer's evaulation of a product?
« Last Edit: April 22, 2002, 06:36:45 PM by funkedup »

Offline Nashwan

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why does 109G10 climb so bad??
« Reply #89 on: April 22, 2002, 06:34:14 PM »
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You donīt want to understand obviously. Those lines drawn in 20seconds are not 100% correct and i donīt want to say the spit performed exactly this way. I just want to give you an imagination about the effect. You better look at the climbrates, which depend much more directly on power instead of speed.

I agree they demonstrate the effect, but that effect is present in the documents I linked to.

Your calculations show speed and climb should both be reduced with an increase in critical altitude.

The documents show that they are, for example the aircraft with 12K FTH is approx 6mph slower at sea level.

I accept the theory, and the documents support the theory. You seemed to be arguing the effect should be greater than the documents suggest.

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B) the date in the bottom right corner says July 46. Those charts were made over 1 year later then the end of the war, or 2 years later then the introduction of the Spit14 in the RAF. You have to decide yourself whether you consider those charts, maybe from spits produced under civil circumstances instead of wartime (what also could mean not in armed mode), are representative for a ī44 spit14.

Looking at the PRO catalogue, the charts are probably from the tests carried out on the Hornet.

A few things make me believe they are of a standard wartime Spitfire XIV in combat trim.

1, They match what you could expect from a Spitfire XIV with increased full throttle height.

2. At FS altitudes they match the test results of the prototype Spitfire XIV, which the test reports says was in combat trim.

3. There is little point comparing various combat aircraft if they are not in combat trim.

4. I doubt new performance tests were carried out on the Spit XIV in 1946. It had already been superceeded by the Spitfire XVIII and 21, 22 etc.

5. The report I mentioned on raising the speed of various fighters at 3000 for V-1 chasing was produced in mid 44, and gave the speed of the Spitfire XIV as 372mph at 3K, the same as the later report showed. The prototype Spit did 380 mph at 3000ft.

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I have seen peak output quoted for the Merlin 66 as 1670hp or 1760hp. That looks like a misunderstanding to me, but could be a genuine power difference.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I assume that one power output is for sealevel, the other for the critical altitude of the 1st gear. The power outputs for the RR engines are very often given for the critical altitude of the 1st gear, what is usually higher than sealevel output. The griffon is given with 2050hp, but at sealevel the output was only 1850hp-1900hp. This way the power output looks better, german engines are usually given with sealevl output AND sometimes, especially in case of the 801 with the reduced poweroutput due to rameffects. (static thrust 1800PS, dynamic 1730PS or 1700hp).

No, I am sure the 1760 hp figure is just a misunderstanding of the 1670hp figure.

The Merlin 66 was very similar in MS gear to the Packard -7 engine, and that was rated at 1500hp at sea level, 1670 in MS gear, iirc.

Your second sentence demonstrates your agenda, I think.

Engines can be rated in many different ways. Most people talking about an engine want to know maximum power, so that is what is most commonly talked about. British engines were rated at max, max continuous, 30 min rating etc.