Author Topic: And the Winner is? F4U-1C (Read 3175 times)

weazel · « **Reply #30 on:** March 27, 2000, 01:49:00 PM »

The P-51D has 486 kills and has been killed 976 times against the F4U-1C.

The Bf 109G-10 has 357 kills and has been killed 572 times against the F4U-1C.

The Spitfire Mk IX has 1042 kills and has been killed 2055 times against the F4U-1C.

The B-17G has 96 kills and has been killed 501 times against the F4U-1C.

The P-38L has 556 kills and has been killed 1119 times against the F4U-1C.

The Spitfire Mk V has 663 kills and has been killed 1552 times against the F4U-1C.

The F4U-1C has 940 kills and has been killed 940 times against the F4U-1C.

The Bf 109G-6 has 120 kills and has been killed 175 times against the F4U-1C.

The Bf 109G-2 has 52 kills and has been killed 118 times against the F4U-1C.

The Bf 109F-4 has 44 kills and has been killed 83 times against the F4U-1C.

The B-26B has 180 kills and has been killed 716 times against the F4U-1C.

The F4U-1D has 36 kills and has been killed 122 times against the F4U-1C.

The C.205 has 235 kills and has been killed 462 times against the F4U-1C.

The Fw 190A-8 has 226 kills and has been killed 315 times against the F4U-1C.

The N1K2 has 461 kills and has been killed 980 times against the F4U-1C.

The C-47A has 9 kills and has been killed 212 times against the F4U-1C.

Summary:

The F4U-1C has 11411 kills and has been killed 5670 times.

It`s absurd to try and validate the posistion that this plane isn`t unbalancing in the current arena. It`s apparent the only plane that has even a chance against it is-surprise!-the F4U1c. Who would have figured that one? The aircraft with superior (historically) characteristics fare poorly against it,whether they be allied or axis. Trying to compare the 109`s with gun pods is an apples and oranges argument as well and illustrates that some people don`t fly the 109`s much-it`s a total pig with low chance of surviving an encounter with anything other than a bomber if it carries the gun pods. The only question this brings to my mind is if the D and C model Corsairs are basically the same aircraft except for the armament is the weight of the guns and ammo difference modeled correctly in regards to performance and turn/roll rate? In the 109`s and 190 you get a large performance impact using the heavier guns/loadouts-is this also true of the F4U`s?

Karnak · « **Reply #31 on:** March 27, 2000, 02:37:00 PM »

Um, weazel, your numbers are interesting. One thing I would point out is that this line:

"The F4U-1C has 940 kills and has been killed 940 times against the F4U-1C."

does not tell us anything. Of course its going to be even, but it doesn't tell us how hard it is for the F4U-1C to kill another F4U-1C. It just tells us that its killed another F4U-1C 940 times. The Spit IX may, for example, have an easier time killing it, we just don't know.

Sisu

Hristo · « **Reply #32 on:** March 27, 2000, 02:40:00 PM »

LW planeset lacks competitive planes.

Only one thing helps LW planes and it is MW 50 in 109G-10.

Where is D-9, 262, or even MW 50 in A-8 ?

A-5 won't help much.

[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 03-27-2000).]

AKDejaVu · « **Reply #33 on:** March 27, 2000, 03:30:00 PM »

My main problem with any "unballancing" argument is purely based on the fact that in my flying I don't run across them that often. I don't see 5 F4u-1C's flying in formation. I don't see half of the planes in a furball have the F4u id over them. I just don't see this at all.

I do see hordes of 109s (Do these guys only fly in groups) and more Spit-IX than you can shake a stick at. I've even seen nothing but p-51 icons clog the sky. I just can't remember seeing an F4u anywhere but over a base vulching.

Come now... all of those people that are posting here... Do you really sit there and say "oh my god... its an F4u... I'm toast"? I actually think "The idiot will go for a snapshot... make him commit low... if he tries to turn to get the shot I have him."

Don't try to HO an F4u-1C. Don't pass in front of an F4u-1C. Remember an F4u-1C can't climb, accelerate, retain E nor turn for crap. Figure out how to use those things against it.

It just amazes me that people spend more time discussing why the F4u-1C should be removed than they do discussing what maneuvers/tactics work best to kill it.

AKDejaVu
-Done beating the same topic into the ground yet another time

[This message has been edited by AKDejaVu (edited 03-27-2000).]

Kieren · « **Reply #34 on:** March 27, 2000, 03:54:00 PM »

AKDejavu-

With all due respect, what game have you been playing lately?

I personally would never call for the removal of any plane, but I have to tell you that clearly 25-40% of the planes I see are F4U's. And yes, when you see 4-5 of them over your head (and I see that all the time) you are thinking "that's all for me". I do see them away from fields. I see them high and low. Like American Express, they are everywhere you want to be.

I don't care if people fly them or don't, but I do think there are some legitimate gripes being posted about them IMHO. I need to fly them from time-to-time because I have to teach others to fly them. But I'll tell you I feel a bit guilty when I do- and this is not intended as a slam- because they are too easy to kill in for my taste.

Now we will soon have the Typhoon. Same thing, faster at low level, better views. You want to guess what half the arena will be flying two weeks after that beast hits? 25% 1C, 25% Typhoon.

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I want a good fight- win or lose- not a situation where the outcome was never really in doubt. Put me in a 1C 2K over your head and you are already as good as dead. If I'm in a 109F4 I have to think a few steps ahead of you and make multiple passes to get the job done, and even then you have a pretty good chance to get away.

You don't have to agree that the 1C unbalances the arena, but you have to admit it is flown in great numbers and is without doubt the most lethal plane in the set.

AKDejaVu · « **Reply #35 on:** March 27, 2000, 04:43:00 PM »

The Spit-IX has been shot down more times than the F4u-1C has kills. The P-38 and Spit-V have been shot down nearly as much. The P-51, 109's, N1K and bombers average 5k deaths each. The F4u-1C dominance is not responsible for all of these. If you argue that it has an outlandish k/d... then you are also admitting it does more killing with fewer sorties (a stretch.. but it has to correlate). The F4u-1C is flown less than at least 3 other aircraft in the arena (Spit IX, V and P-38). I'd venture to say it is flown less than one or two other planes based on observations. It is not, however, the most flown aircraft in the arena.

I have 128 kills vs 31 deaths. That's 159 engagements. I am 5:2 againts the F4u-1C. Of 159 conflicts, only 7 of them were against an F4u-1C. I know I've ran from P-51's (3 of them together just yesterday), P-38's, Spit-IX's and recently camo's 190D. I cannot ever remember running from an F4u-1C.

So.. once again, I have to ask... where the hell are all these F4u-1C's that are dominating the skies? Maybe things have changed in the last day or two. After all, everyone gets to come to the forum and read just how much better of a pilot they will be once they start flying the F4u-1C.

BTW... still no mention of why strategy against the 1C has not even been discussed once.

AKDejaVu

Pongo · « **Reply #36 on:** March 27, 2000, 05:03:00 PM »

Sure it has AK.
Every time discusion of avoiding HO arises.
Just the fact that HOs against the F4u1c 95 % of the time lead to your death not his could account for the difference in numbers we see. Just take the P51 and make every HO a win and see what happens to its KD.

------------------
Pongo
The Wrecking Crew

AKDejaVu · « **Reply #37 on:** March 27, 2000, 05:42:00 PM »

When I come in on a Spit-IX flying my F4u-1C... I'm thinking all the way: "(3k)please hold still...(2k) don't break yet... 1.5k)wait.. (1.2k)" then the pilot breaks and I know I have him. I'm sorry if most of the arena thinks that letting the enemy get real close to you then pulling back on the stick is the solution to all your problems. How many of those doing it realize what a x-section they present when doing it?

I am simply amazed at how many people don't even try to avoid my guns. I have the video of my last flight. It was a two victory flight against an F4u-1C and a Spit-IX. Both of them ignored me. The F4u-1C dove way down below me then tried an immelman and somehow managed to stall with his nose straight up in the air. A stationary target is an easy kill. The Spit-IX was trying to protect a low 47 from 2 other spits. He ignored me as I closed from 3k to 1k in a span of 30 seconds. I called my wife over to the computer saying.. "honey.. come watch this". When I was at 800 yards I fired off a burst that pinged the spit's wing 6 times without breaking it. The spit pilot yanked back on the controls and gave me a beautiful shot... every control surface fell off as I fired at him from 600 yds all the way to 400. Niether kill was due to the invincibility, uberness nor outstanding pilot skill.

Both kills were do to the fact that two pilots thought they could ignore those 4 cannons behind them. Many more are caused by the fact that people don't believe that F4u vulching the base can get his nose around fast enough after that last pass. Or.. that waiting till the enemy is 1.5k back is a good idea before breaking.

Face it.. the F4u-1C does well because people have gotten lazy. They are used to being pinged x ammount of times before damage. They are used to hearing the first ping then breaking. People firmly believe they will get that aircraft in front of them before the one behind them does them in. The F4u-1C throws a clog into the gears that make those beliefs reallity. It kills because people forgot that cannons are something you don't want to be in front of at any cost. People forgot that you have to pay attention to the guns that are pointed at you because you never know what might happen when the other pilot squeezes the trigger

I could go on for hours about why people are really losing to the F4u-1C. None of it has to do with the fact that it is an uber plane. I know why people lose to it... I watch it happen on my monitor 1.5 times per sortie. I tell my wife about the mistake they are making as I aproach. I say things like "as long as he doesn't..." and they don't. Or... "crap, now he's got good position" and they blow it. Or... "these planes take a long time to start their engines" as I shoot the same pilot for the 8th time OTR.

AKDejaVu

Kieren · « **Reply #38 on:** March 27, 2000, 06:14:00 PM »

Never said the plane was uber- I said the guns require the least time on target to kill.

Didn't say the F4U-1C makes me a wonderful pilot- I said its guns require the least amount of time on target for me to kill.

Didn't say people don't fly stupid sometimes- I said the F4U-1C's guns make killing very easy.

What is there for you to dispute here?

Good range + best guns + large ammo load + good speed = killing machine.

weazel · « **Reply #39 on:** March 27, 2000, 06:35:00 PM »

<SIGH> From the JG2 Forum posted by Dnil.

Quote

I filmed the whole thing, file is pretty large but will send it to anyone that wants it. Watch the guy that first hit weazel, too funny, his plane was in pieces as he hit weaz, uggh.

This is one of my biggest gripes about the F4U1c,here is a plane shot to pieces that STILL manages to quake me with a spray and pray. The bottom line in this argument is while you corsair dweebs are having fun the rest of the arena who don`t rely on this crutch are getting robbed of their enjoyment. This isn`t the only time this garbage has happened to me,I shot the wing off one and it turned into the "Death Blossom" from The Last Starfighter movie as it spiraled to the ground. Barring some kind of restriction on the availability of this plane I`ll just ask for a comparable aircraft for us LW flyers,the TA-152 comes to mind in this case.

AKDejaVu · « **Reply #40 on:** March 27, 2000, 07:08:00 PM »

Kieren,

Not every reply is directed towards you. The reply right below your post never mentioned "uber" once. Nor did it mention anything about making someone a better pilot. Nor.. did I say that you said anything.

You said:

Quote

but I have to tell you that clearly 25-40% of the planes I see are F4U's

I will reply one more time to this to make it very clear. The data presented does not show this (F4u-1Cs account for 18% of all kills), nor does my experience in the arena indicate this to me. I have seen situations where there have been F4u-1Cs in abundance... at a base vulching.

When I am at 25k cruising along and see a con, I think wonder if its a B-17 or a B-26... then I wonder if its not a bomber... then I wonder if its a Spit-IX, P-51 or P-38. If there are two of them I wonder if they are 109's. It isn't really even a consideration that it could be an F4u-1C.

Maybe its just me. Maybe all F4u-1C pilots know to keep away from me or fear my wrath. To date I have only managed to instill this behavior in my wife's two cats... but this could be the start of a new trend

So, the use of "uber" and "makes a pilot better" wasn't in rebuttal to anything you have said. I won't dispute that the cannons on the F4u-1C are the most powerful in the arena. What I will dispute till the end is the fact that someone believes that the aircraft 800 yards behind him with guns blazing shouldn't be able to do as much damage as it does (once again.. not saying you said that.. just explaining the other post in response to someone else's post).

AKDejaVu
Done with this thread... for there is nothing more to say.

CptTrips · « **Reply #41 on:** March 27, 2000, 07:08:00 PM »

Hmmm. I just don't get it.

The 1c is dangerous, just not uber.

I usually fear a high 109 over a 1c. I know the 1c has fewer screw-ups it can get away with.

Its certainly not uber, at least not when I fly it. ;> Sure the guns are big, but its also more pig than hawg. I only really enjoy it when I'm flying wingman with my squadie. Then you can make up for its deficiencies with team work. I mostly like my dweebspit.

I checked my stats (first time):

Tour2
--------------
AKWabbit has 6 kills and has been killed 6 times in the Spitfire Mk IX against the F4U-1C.

Hmmm. I won't be having many 1c nightmares. But thats a small sampling. Lemme look back at tour1.

Tour1
-------------------
AKWabbit has 21 kills and has been killed 4 times in the Spitfire Mk IX against the F4U-1C.

(shrug) I just don't see the uberness. They jive with my gut feeling. I just don't remember getting whacked by 1c's 50 times a night. I don't know what color the sky is in your world but they're not DOMINATING my arena. Am I reading these stats the right way? I killed 24 1c's, and only 4 1c's kilt me? (shrug) I don't get it? Wheres the beef?

Its scores are vulch driven I think. No biggie. Nothing to shake in fear over. No need to have nightmares about those big, blue boogiemen. No need for petitions to have it removed. Just keep your head, fly smart, get him to commit and blow his E, then send him to Jesus.

$0.02, no charge,
Wab

AKDejaVu · « **Reply #42 on:** March 27, 2000, 07:17:00 PM »

Wabbit,

While I appreciate you supporting my argument, I feel oblicated to inform people that the reason you don't think the F4u-1C is lethal is because 50% of the time you take one up, you don't have any ammo in it.

Sorry Wab... I just couldn't let that be overlooked

AKDejaVu

Pongo · « **Reply #43 on:** March 27, 2000, 07:19:00 PM »

Well this discussion is no fun anymore. Reasonableness has set in.
Weaz is correct, lots of silly kills seem to happen arround the f4u1c, the types of kills that take the fun out of the fight. Wabbit and DV are right...its not like most of the time you cant handle a mediocre flown F4u1c..Keiren always brings anoying reasonableness to any discussion so of course he is fundimentaly right. sheessh...yup this ones dead.
thanks alot it had some real promise there.
Have to go back to the Up Gun the 51! fight already in process.

------------------
Pongo
The Wrecking Crew

CptTrips · « **Reply #44 on:** March 27, 2000, 07:51:00 PM »

...yer jus not gonna let me live that one down are ya?

Hell DJ, I don't need no stinking bullets. I just fly over their base and all the weak sisters faint from fright at the sight of my big blue beast and fall to the ground! No need to fire a shot.

Wab