Author Topic: F4u-1 (Read 912 times)

fdiron · « **Reply #30 on:** April 28, 2002, 06:34:38 AM »

If you have an altitude advantage over someone in a one on one fight, then all you really need to do is dive, fire, pull-out and repeat. However, when you dont have the altitude advantage, its important that (1) your airpseed be around 300, and (2) you know what areas you can out perform the other aircraft.

Sometimes you just gotta hold down on the trigger and pray that you kill him before he kills you

lazs2 · « **Reply #31 on:** April 28, 2002, 09:59:26 AM »

Yep... I like the fifties and large ammo load.. I take all the low percentage shots. The problem with the fifties is that they are real "assits" makers in today's MA. You have to get a couple of good snapshots, at the very least, on a con to bring him down and any cannon plane can take the kill away if he so desires.

I fly the Hog incorectly most of the time... Low and slow and on the edge of the stall most of the time.

As for all the comparrison data... I like to look at all the side by side testing that I can get and then see if there are points that match up. Most of the stuff shows not much difference in climb/acceleration between the 51, 190a, corsair and hellcat... I don't like to look at the factory or the service testing of one model of any plane because there are so many variables... How can you test climb on a 109 in Bavaria in the winter and then use that data to show how much better it climbs than a P47 in the Mojave desert on a summer day at 120 degrees in the shade? In factory or service testing you rarely know what the loadout is and sometimes even whatpower settings but in comparisson testin it seems like they do their best to even up the variables.
lazs

F4UDOA · « **Reply #32 on:** April 28, 2002, 06:35:32 PM »

There is a very good thread in the "Help and Training" section about the SpitIX vrs F6F-5. Frankly I luv the F6F, if has many excellent qualities however I would rather take a F4U-1 into that fight very time.

In an artical by BadBoy on xHAMMERx's webpage he defines the fight between a SpitIX and F4U-1. In his analysis the F4U holds all the cards. What most people don't realize is that the F4U can outturn the Spit even down to very low speeds. The trick is to always be faster the Spit. In fact as long as you are faster than the spit your instantanious turn rate will always be superior. If you become slower that the Spit disengage. by diving and rolling away. The F6F cannot survive this because it does not have a better high speed roll than the spit and it's max speed at low alt does not allow for adequate separation.

I almost feel like I don't want newbies to fly the F4U because it is such a unique bird people don't take time to learn it. They get in, got killed a couple times and quit it.

There is no A/C type in AH that one on one that an F4U-1 or -1D cannot handle with possible exception of the Spit XIV(262 not included). P-51's are the toughest for me because there is not than much of an advantage in any one area to exploit.

fdiron · « **Reply #33 on:** April 28, 2002, 11:20:54 PM »

F4U-1c is a spit14 killer.

Widewing · « **Reply #34 on:** April 29, 2002, 01:18:07 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by F4UDOA
There is a very good thread in the "Help and Training" section about the SpitIX vrs F6F-5. Frankly I luv the F6F, if has many excellent qualities however I would rather take a F4U-1 into that fight very time.

In an artical by BadBoy on xHAMMERx's webpage he defines the fight between a SpitIX and F4U-1. In his analysis the F4U holds all the cards. What most people don't realize is that the F4U can outturn the Spit even down to very low speeds. The trick is to always be faster the Spit. In fact as long as you are faster than the spit your instantanious turn rate will always be superior. If you become slower that the Spit disengage. by diving and rolling away. The F6F cannot survive this because it does not have a better high speed roll than the spit and it's max speed at low alt does not allow for adequate separation.

I almost feel like I don't want newbies to fly the F4U because it is such a unique bird people don't take time to learn it. They get in, got killed a couple times and quit it.

There is no A/C type in AH that one on one that an F4U-1 or -1D cannot handle with possible exception of the Spit XIV(262 not included). P-51's are the toughest for me because there is not than much of an advantage in any one area to exploit.

I like the F4U, and fly it from time to time. However, I can't agree with your statements about turn rate. As it stands, I kill Corsairs by the bushel, and rarely suffer a loss to them. I never suffer a loss if I see them. Diz Dean's analysis of the turning ability of U.S. WWII fighters puts the F4U at the bottom of the list in terms of turning ability. Let's compare the F4U-1D to the P-38L. It (the Corsair) is inferior in acceleration and climb. I have no difficulty in out-turning the F4U in the P-38. Even in a dive, the Corsair is not markedly superior to the P-38, but only in peak speed, as the P-38 accelerates better until it hits compressibility. At high speed, nothing out-rolls the P-38. If I had to take any American fighter up against the Spitfire, I'd take the P-38 over everything else. Why? Because I'll win 9 times out of 10. I dont have that level of confidence with the F4U.

My regards,

Widewing

BUG_EAF322 · « **Reply #35 on:** April 29, 2002, 01:31:13 AM »

ill agree with that the P38 is superiour to the spit

mrsid2 · « **Reply #36 on:** April 29, 2002, 03:04:30 AM »

I'd take AH spit ix against P38 anytime.

fdiron · « **Reply #37 on:** April 29, 2002, 04:30:14 AM »

The F4U is superior to the P38 in the regard that it can dive thousands of feet onto its target, fire off an accurate burst, and then regain the altitude to repeat this maneuver again. The P38 is not able to do this as well as the F4U. I have had an F4U in a dive over 600mph and sucessfully pulled out before. Try that in a P38.

The F4U-1 has 157 kills and has been killed 122 times against the P-38L.

The F4U-1D has 537 kills and has been killed 483 times against the P-38L.

The F4U-1D has 1006 kills and has been killed 1181 times against the Spitfire Mk IX.

The P-38L has 956 kills and has been killed 1282 times against the Spitfire Mk IX.

BUG_EAF322 · « **Reply #38 on:** April 29, 2002, 04:36:07 AM »

the mine scores better on all

why dive ?

H. Godwineson · « **Reply #39 on:** April 29, 2002, 07:26:09 AM »

Lazs2,

On what do you base your statement that Eric Brown was flying only worn out planes?

Most of the evaluations in his book are based on his experiences flying these aircraft during World War II. If memory serves, he was one of the RNAF's main test pilots. His responsibilities included flying the F4U-1 and F6F-3 in comparison with ME-109s and FW-190s for the purpose of providing British pilots with performance data that they could use in combat against these enemy aircraft. He also flew the Corsair and Hellcat onto and off of British carriers. The enemy aircraft he flew against may have been captured, but they were not junk, having been refurbished by the RNAF or the RAF and brought as close as was possible to operational status.

I further reiterate, the evaluations of an actual combat pilot carry more weight than those of such "arm-chair" fighter jocks such as those that fly Aces High.

Regards, Shuckins

lazs2 · « **Reply #40 on:** April 29, 2002, 08:32:07 AM »

his tests were his opinion and nothing else. They were not side by side tests at all. Every pilot has planes that suit him and planes that he likes over others. EB is a very small man and has stated that U.S planes were huge with huge cockpits.

I reiterate. i like side by side testing with the most data. I like to look at as many different side by side tests done by as many groups that I can find. If that is being an AH armchair pilot then so be it. I would feel foolish taking one mans opinion over so many others and so much other data.

widewing.. he means instantaneous turn. most of us who fly -1's don't have a lot of trouble with spits. I have the most trouble with lag7. 51's are a problem if there is more than one of em working together.
lazs

F4UDOA · « **Reply #41 on:** April 29, 2002, 12:00:05 PM »

Widewing,

I love the book "America's Hundred Thousand" and I have met Francis Dean, been in his house and talked to him. He is 76 years old and sharp as a whip. He also edited the "report of Joint Fighter Conferance". That is where he got his 3G stall speed and calculated his Clmax. At that meeting pilots that flew these fighters listed there 3G stall speeds during their flights.

The condition was no flaps 3G stall.

The F4U-1D was given an average 3G stall in Knots of 150knts and a range of stalls from 130Knots to 190Knots.

By contrast at the same meeting the FG-1A. The same exact A/C had an average 3G stall of 130Knots.

The spoiler strip which is discussed way to much was installed on all A/C after the summer of 1943. This test was in the fall of 1944.

Also at the meeting the F8F-1 was tested and had an average 3G stall of 150Knots to the left and 190knots to the right.

Through out the report knots and MPH are changed back and fourth repeatedly. Also the A/C were flown for evauluation by pilots of differnent services. Not flown to determine flight parameters. Based on the results of the two F4U's I think it is fair to say the results are vague at best and certainly not a referance for what Mr. Dean used them for 50 years later.

Having said that the F4U was rated by the pilots that flew it as such. (the F4U was flown by 13 Army pilots, 4 Navy, 8 Contract, 3 British)

Catagories

Best fighter below 25,000FT.
F8F = 30%
P-51D= 29%
F4U-1D= 27%
F7F= 6%
F6F = 2%
P-38L received no mention

Best fighter Above 25,000FT.
P-47D = 45%
P-51D = 39%
F4U = 7%
F6F = 3%
P-38L= 1%

Best Fighter Bomber
F4U-1D = 32%
P-47 = 19%
Mosquito = 14%
F6F = 12%
F7F =11%
P-51D =7%
P-38L = 5%

Based on the entirety of the report I would say that the Fighter Capabilties of the F4U speak for themselves.

Widewing · « **Reply #42 on:** April 30, 2002, 01:06:53 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by fdiron
The F4U is superior to the P38 in the regard that it can dive thousands of feet onto its target, fire off an accurate burst, and then regain the altitude to repeat this maneuver again. The P38 is not able to do this as well as the F4U. I have had an F4U in a dive over 600mph and sucessfully pulled out before. Try that in a P38.

The F4U-1 has 157 kills and has been killed 122 times against the P-38L.

The F4U-1D has 537 kills and has been killed 483 times against the P-38L.

The F4U-1D has 1006 kills and has been killed 1181 times against the Spitfire Mk IX.

The P-38L has 956 kills and has been killed 1282 times against the Spitfire Mk IX.

Today I encountered two Spits (looked like Mk.IXs) and a P-51 while flying at 24k in a P-38. All of these aircraft were higher than me, leading a horde of B-17s. I simply flew right underneath them and nailed a B-17 in a head-on attack. All three fighters had reversed and were coming down on me. I popped the dive flaps and spilt-s'd for the deck. It was no contest, I was 4k ahead of them and pulling 550+ true. Yeah, the P-38 was buffeting like mad, but so what? At 6k, I eased out of the dive using trim. Both Spits endd up below me about 5.5k behind. The Mustang didn't follow. At this point, I went vertical into an Immelmann, ending up at 9k alt, well above the Spitfires. I extended to d4k, and turned into them. On the merge, I pinched and blasted a wing off of one Spit, who was caught by surprise (pinching on the merge is generally unexpected). The other Spitfire, lagging behind the first, half-looped, and rolled out about 2k behind me. But that killed his speed and I pulled out to nearly 5k, reversing again. As I head towards the Spit, the Mustang shows up, diving on my six. I headed straight for the Spitfire, who wisely turned away to avoid the fate of his wingy. As the Mustang closed to 700 yards, I broke hard right, and instantly reversed left. As the P-51 overshot, I got a burst into his radiator, and he headed for the deck running for his life. Meanwhile, the second Spity is closing from behind now. I begin a gentle right turn, causing the Spit to pull lead. As I tighten the turn, the Spit commits, turning even harder. Once he's where I wanted him, I barrel roll left, and then skid right. The Spit squirts out in front of me. I fire a long burst, and his right elevator flutters away. He trys to jink, but my next shot kills him. I RTB no worse for the wear. Later, I added an F4U-1D and a pair of F6Fs, as well as a dozen or so others during the course of sorties.

Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Make them fight your fight.

The K/D numbers merely reflect the fact that most pilots have no idea how fly the P-38 to its full potential. Master the P-38, and you can fight and defeat anything. You may not win every fight, but you will win most of them. If you find yourself slow and low, pop 1 notch of flaps, and it can hang with the Niki and F6F, turning as tight or tighter.

My regards,

Widewing

fdiron · « **Reply #43 on:** April 30, 2002, 02:58:55 AM »

Thats a nice story widewing. An F4U-1 could have done the same thing. The F4U-1 is faster than the P38L from sea level to 20,000 feet. The F4U is also a more durable aircraft.

The P38 is undoubtedly an easier plane to fly than the F4U. However, the Corsair is a more survivable aircraft. I am sure there are just as many new pilots flying the F4U incorrectly as there are flying the P38L.

lazs2 · « **Reply #44 on:** April 30, 2002, 08:13:42 AM »

guess that proves my theory that guys that fly at high alt aren't very good.
lazs