Author Topic: Stall model and 2 sugestions  (Read 178 times)

Offline chefer

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Stall model and 2 sugestions
« on: April 25, 2002, 04:01:55 PM »
alute all,

I don't know how and have no big interests about how HTC build the AH flight Model. :confused:
I’m a designer and a marketing man. Although I know a little of 3D modeling and rendering, computing is only a job's tool for me.
Personally I think AH FM is very good in all aspects but one: Stall Model.

I decided post that letter after start a similar discussion in another forum (at http://www.jambock.com - Sorry but the site have all text in Portuguese) about a lot of things than I consider superior in AH if compared to other flight sims.
I'm not an ace flyer or ACM expert but HAMMERHEAD stall turn does not work fine for me in AH. Without this same difficult, WINGOVER or SLICEBACK moves is hard to do too.
WITHOUT TUNE OFF ENGINE is impossible!

Historically, FW190 was a plane reference for this maneuver.
Recently, in other fight simulatos, i used that move with success. In AH, if I only stop the throttle near 120~130 mph (big initial speed (E), perfectly in vertical climb approach and centered slip indicator) and wait the 180 degress nose flip, the only thing I get is a floated stall, sometimes inverted. I tried with P-38 too and thinking to diminish torque effects without good results!
Is the torque heavily modeled or I am doing anything wrong? Or the Stall Model is over modeled?


I would like to add two others suggestions: :D
1) Gauge (panel) lights – I suppose that night flights use the same 3D illumination of daylight flights in AH. I don’t know how complex it is but any kind of trick to simulate night red panel lights or dim (like a dimmer) light would be a nice improvement to cockpit “immersion feeling”.

2) Sunbeam – We don’t have yet a close representation of blindness made by the 12 o’clock sun intensity (8~10AM, 3~5PM) when we have a clear and sunny day on AH. I think be needed a more strong and white sun with a large and brighter halo contour. I’m feeling to easy spot enemy in the sun. The actual sunbeam representation doesn’t improve the surprise or “ghost” 6 o’clock high attacks. Even though we don’t have the real range of atmospherical effects in AH I think you could improve the actual environment representation with that refinement.

Thanks a lot

Chefer

Offline Kweassa

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Stall model and 2 sugestions
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2002, 04:36:00 PM »
If you fly Fockewulf 190s, you have to make sure you are draining the auxillary and rear fuel tanks before you drain the main fuel tanks in order to push the center of gravity forward. Otherwise any sort of vertical maneuver in the 190s become a bit wobbly and unstable.

 Generally, in AH, planes like Fw 190 should be completing the loop and nosing down when the speed reaches about 100.  A plane like P-51 shouldn't try a tight vertical at all since it has a nasty stall/spin. In the case of the P-38, it noses over even at very low speeds due to no torque and great flaps, but once it falls into a stall/spin it is very nasty too. The 109s are great for verticals and generally will safely go upl until the speeds are under 100mph even(in those cases, the 109s do a Tailslide method instead of looping Hammerheads).

 Whether a real aircraft is prone to stall in those speeds seen in AH I cannot say, but I think most AH gamers have no problem with how it is modeled currently. I think you should just adapt to it unless you can successfully come up with some reasonable stuff enough to pursuade HTC that their current FM is wrong :)

 And I think the other two suggestions, by the way, are very good :)

Offline Don

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Stall model and 2 sugestions
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2002, 08:37:52 AM »
Regarding sunglare; I don't see any problem with it at all. In fact, as I am tracking nme who's flight path take them directly under the sun in the MA, for a brief time that a/c will disappear. To attack an nme in the MA from out of the sun is a good manuever, and has an advantage to it.
Regarding wingovers, well I use that manuever at times when I want to change direction quickly without a lot of speed build up.
I find that the correct speed to use with flaps and rudder is different for each plane I fly. The move in an FW 190 is tricky because it bleeds E so quickly. Without proper amount of stick input and speed, it is easy to stall out in an FW. The Hammer head is an extremely difficult manuever in any plane; and should be. The AH physics model is unique in that it is as close an approximation of actual flight physics as can be found in a combat sim. I don't know what other sims for prop driven planes you have flown, but this one is close enuf IMO.

Offline chefer

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Stall model and 2 sugestions
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2002, 11:14:48 AM »
As you wish Don...

The 2 others sims mentioned by me is Warbirds and IL-2. (was only a ethical supression).

I agree with Kweassa explanation about dry rear fuel tanks first for Hammerhead because the same changes in CG happen with several other planes. I will practice :D

Regarding Wingovers, I use it fine on 109 and even on Spit. It works for me but in AH that move request more great skill or proficiency than in other two.

I still feel just now a little bit of lack of nose weight or gravity input at low speeds, mainly in 190.
But like I said before... I'm not a expert :)

Thanks both for reply.
Cya

Offline HFMudd

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Stall model and 2 sugestions
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2002, 11:37:50 AM »
Reguarding sunglare (Disclaimer: I've never been in actual combat but have gone outside on rare occasions)...

The point is not that the plane vanish when within the disk of the sun, they do.  It is more an issue of attempting to simulate that it is unpleasent to look anywher in the vicinity of the sun.  If Blocke had of needed to line himself up perfectly between the Sun and his target in order to avoid being seen, as we would need to in AH, he would never have even mentioned it.  The Sun is what, only 1/2 a degree wide or so, that leaves little margin for error if one wants to play the part of the "Hun in the Sun."

I think Chefer's point is that there exists a disk, a good deal larger that the disk of the Sun itself, in which the glare of the Sun hide the attacker.  Further, there is a larger disk around that in which you don't want to look to often because it is unpleasent.

My suggestions:
1) That planes progressivly loose contrast the closer they get to disk of Sun until they vanish.  I believe they currently do this but I'd like to see the "effective" disk be about double in size.
2) That planes within an arc of about 4 disk diameters have no icons.
3) That any time you look in the direction of the Sun, for a period of time dependent on how long the Sun was in your field of view, you see the world as if it were night in other directions.

Offline Don

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Stall model and 2 sugestions
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2002, 12:18:52 PM »
>>I still feel just now a little bit of lack of nose weight or gravity input at low speeds, mainly in 190. <<

Chefer:
My point was/is, in the 190 at low speeds it is a very tricy a/c to fly period. Light stick input is advisable otherwise you will stall it. I'm not talking about real life or any other sim but AH. War Birds is not a sim I am all that familiar although I've tried it (and didnt care for it). I do know that you cant expect to do a hammerhead in the same way you would do a hammerhead in an F4U or a P-38 or any other a/c. The 109 was a much different plane than the 190; lighter and without the near instantaneous roll rate that the 190 had/has.

HFMudd:
Sunglare in AH: Look up as an nme flies over you and see the affect the sun has on what you see of the image passing over. THis is the way it is modeled in AH; pretty good IMO. But, I don't want to experience anything unpleasant as I fly in AH ;)
If I see the sun I put my sunglasses on; in AH I don't get sunglass but, I'm okay with assuming I have access to 'virtual sunglasses' :D
« Last Edit: April 26, 2002, 12:21:01 PM by Don »

Offline AcId

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Stall model and 2 sugestions
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2002, 01:26:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by HFMudd
Reguarding sunglare (Disclaimer: I've never been in actual combat but have gone outside on rare occasions)...

...  It is more an issue of attempting to simulate that it is unpleasent to look anywher in the vicinity of the sun.  ...


For this effect couldnt we just replace the sun with a gif or jpg of a diseased hairy arse?

Offline chefer

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Stall model and 2 sugestions
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2002, 04:23:32 PM »
Sorry guys but my english have limitations and sometimes is hard to me explain with right words.

I think HFMudd understood my concept about sun intensity (itself and around), glare or atmospherical halo effect. I agree about icons and dot visibility too when nme is "near" sun.

I uderstood all your words, including "virtual sunglasses", Don.
Listen, with the new female message "Ace under attack" the element of surprise is more and more farway. Why worry with nme in the sun???  You got my concept, Don?

Personally I think AH have the best overall game concept among competition and we are talking about sustain that leadership with small adjustments.

HTC can't add all personal ideas posted here but I will be happy with a correct night illumination, a new key to tune on panel lights, a brighter sun and another key to bring down your sunglasses. :cool: just kidding.

Thank you Don and HFMudd
Regards
Chefer

Offline john9001

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Stall model and 2 sugestions
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2002, 04:54:44 PM »
do i have to be a Ace to get "Ace under attack" msg ?, all i get are "check six" msg.

44MAG
ace wannabe

Offline Tinker

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Stall model and 2 sugestions
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2002, 10:04:58 AM »
HE HEE HEE HEE  
You fellas  are real interesting..
Your Female voice saying "Ace under attack", listened to very carefully says  "Base Under Attack".. No I assume that your comments were meant to be of the leg pulling kind.. So I will leave it at that...

I personnaly have gone to he AH Sounds folder (subdirectory) and renamed both the warning.wav and attack.wav to something else to shut off that continuous noise of warnings that usually occur during an active day on the "Arena floor"..:D

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Stall model and 2 sugestions
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2002, 10:53:41 AM »
Cutting throttle nosing up doesn't automatically mean the plane flips over and hammerheads..

Some pilots did a move that was considered daring.. They chopped the throttle in vertical so that the plane started to slide down tail first. They then pulled up in order to drop the nose, gain speed and controlled flight again..

Is that move possible in AH? I haven't managed to do it.
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline chefer

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Stall model and 2 sugestions
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2002, 01:06:38 PM »
All right Tinker,
I discover that (Base and not Ace) 5 days ago and shut up her voice of my comp :)

"Cutting throttle nosing up doesn't automatically[B/] mean the plane flips over and hammerheads.. "
I never said that MrRipley and in the past got some Hammerhead trainning with a guy named -worr- in WB to understand and control that move.
I make hammerheads sometimes when have a great E advantage for a subsequent  near HO pass but still need cut off engine at top.

Thx
Chefer