Oh yeah? Who decides that and on what grounds? Why do you say something like that? What gives the Palestinians the right to have a country of their own? Who decides that? You? The UN? (and before you burst out in some “but Israel was given land by the UN”-rant. Please read my first post in this thread, and try to understand that it was Great Britain that gave Israel its land, not the UN).
No, it was the UN, not Britain. Read the history. Britain washed its hands of the affair. Britain didn't even vote in the final UN decisions on the matter.
I'd say the UN should decide, or perhaps the population of the area in question. Who decides Israel has a right to exist?
OR live your life like a normal person, get a job, get a haircut, find a girl to marry, get kids etc etc. The average Palestinian’s choices are just as obvious as the average Irishman's, Quebeckian's, Basque's etc etc etc.
Apart from a few differences.
The average Irishman, Quebecois etc doesn't have to survive on 70 litres of water a day (including his crops, industry etc), 30 litres a day below the recomended minimum for health. The average Irishman, Quebecois has a vote, and a stake in a country. The average Irishman, Quebecois etc doesnt have to worry his house will be demolished as a reprisal for someone else's actions, or to make way for a new settlement. The average Irishman, Quebecois etc doesn't have to carry an identity card denoting his religion, which then defines the reduced benefits and legal rights he is allowed.
If you want independence that bad, win it the right way, the legal way. If you try to win your independence by the way of the sword, be prepared to reap the consequences of your actions.
"The right of any community to use force as a means of gaining its political ends is not admitted in the British Commonwealth. Since the beginning of 1945 the Jews have implicitly claimed this right and have (sic) supported by an organized campaign of lawlessness, murder and sabotage their contention that, whatever other interests might be concerned, nothing should be allowed to stand in the way of a Jewish State and free Jewish immigration into Palestine. It is true that large numbers of Jews do not today attempt to defend the crimes that have been committed in the name of these political aspirations. They recognize the damage caused to their good name by these methods in the court of world opinion. Nevertheless, the Jewish community of Palestine still publicly refuses its help to the Administration in suppressing terrorism, on the ground that the Administration's policy is opposed to Jewish interests. The converse of this attitude is clear, and its result, however much the Jewish leaders themselves may not wish it, has been to give active encouragement to the dissidents and freer scope to their activities.
British submission to the UN general assembly."
I get it, you are saying the Israelis deserve what they get for using terrorism to set up their state?
Blah blah blah. No both are not true because Israel is a democracy, Israel is not fighting a dirty war, heck, Israel is not fighting a war at all (please look up the definition of what constitutes a “war” before mouthing off), the Palestinians are not occupied.
What exactly is Israel doing then?
If the Palestinians are not occupied, what is their status? Citizens of Israel? Why haven't they got a vote then?
If not citizens of Israel, citizens of where?
And you’d better DAMN WELL UNDERSTAND that terrorism is not the only weapons the Pals have against the Israelis. Try for a second, at least TRY to understand my next sentences. If the palestinains would do a “Martin Luther King”, or “Ghandi” on Israel, they would have a country of their own within 5 years. But NO, instead they want to kill off all jews and take all their land. Their weapons of choice are suicide bombers, AK-47s and rocks. They have choosen their path, now they can reap the consequences of their actions.
No, they wouldn't. Israel is committed to a Jewish state, encompassing all the lands of ancient Israel, including the West Bank. That doesn't leave room for a Palestinian state. The best the Palestinians could get themselves by peacefull protest is slightly better second class citizenship.
Please, do show me a quote from me where I tried to justify any Nazi massacre in France. If you cant, then you really should apologize. That is all Im gonna say about that.
I seem to recall it's on the Dresden thread.
Point being?
That the end result of the "good guy's" actions seems to be more fatal to innocent bystanders than the "bad guy's" actions.
Yeah, it is really sad.
Yeah, so are suicide bombings.
Yes, horrible.
What do you think the figures would be if the Palestinians had opted to not start their “Intifada”? What if they just said “Throw rocks at tanks or strap on explosives and kill women and children? Screw that, lets just get on with our lives.” What do you think the body count would have been then?
What would the body count have been if the Zionists had said, no the country's already occupied, let's get on with our lives?
The problem is that it doesnt work the other way around. The Israelis cant say “Screw this conflict, lets give the Palestinians what they want and lets just live in peace and get on with our lives.” It has been proven time and time again that the arabs will not accept a jewish state in the region. Just as an example, take a look at the Saudi peace proposal. Israel withdraw to the 1967 borders, and in return for that, all arab nations will acknowledge Israel’s right to exist. Exactly how diddlyed is that? Exactly what does that say about their current position regarding Israel? Great bargain chip “If you do as we say, we will let you live”.
Jordan and Egypt both signed peace treaties with Israel, both have kept them. Egypt refused to sign without getting the Sinai back. When the Sinai was given back, Sadat, who had ridden a wave of Islamic extremism, made peace and cracked down on the extremists.
People like you said Israel shouldn't give up the Sinai, it was vital to Israeli security. Without it Arab armies could be in Tel Aviv in hours. They were wrong.
Look at it from another angle. Would the Palestinians be more or less annoyed if Israeli settlement stopped, especially if settlements were removed? Do Israeli settlements increase Israels security? Hint: the IDF says they are a security burden, not a help.
So, removing settlements would reduce tension, setting up a border fence would help security. And what does Israel do in the face of the security threat? Expand settlements and refuse to put up a fence.
It isn't about secuity, it's about land.
The Palestinians aren't going to settle for occupied status.
Again, you have understood things wrong. Israel has the land, the Palestinians want the land. Israel says “No, because every time we gave you some land, you went ahead and attacked us and tried to kill us all”, the Palestinains say “give us our land and begone, else we shall kill your women and children”.
Israel occupies the land, the Palestinians live on it.
Every time Israel has given land, it has got peace. Name a case where Israel solved a land dispute with a neighbour and then returned to war. There isn't one.
People under occupation will fight back. That's a fact of life around the world.
Which is exactly why we must keep supporting Israel, and help them fight terrorism. And trust me, there can be peace without any compromise. And you have to understand exactly how stupid you look when you say “There cant be peace until there is a compromise, and the compromise has to come from Israel” Exactly what is your interpretation of the word “compromise”?
Compromise? Israel give up it's dream of greater Israel, and let the Palestinians have a piece of land for their own homeland.
It really is the height of arrogance and stupidity to think that the Jews were right to fight for a homeland, and the Palestinians are wrong to fight for a homeland.
ANYWAY, as I have tried to point out before, there are too many unsolvable questions. The situation will remain until the Arabs start another war against Israel, then Israel will kick their collective tulips again, and they will cool down for a decade or two.
The Arabs won't start another war against Israel. Israel has nukes, and the Arabs wont go to wr until they have them as well.
For Israels sake, it had better resolve it's issues with the Arabs before they have nukes as well, because sooner or later they will be used otherwise.
Well, there has to be several strong borders, not just one. Take a look at a map over the region. There has to be several large walls around the Palestinian villages and towns. But the general idea, to build walls against the Palestinians is not without merit.
Ghetos.
What about food etc? If the Palestinians are confined in the towns, how do they grow crops?
Ever hear the criticism of Hitler that he wouldn't listen to reason, wouldn't pull back to create defensible borders?
The IDF have repeatedly asked for some settlements to be abandoned because they don't have enough troops to defend them all.
Ghetos would be worse. They'd piss the Palestinians off even more, and the IDF wouldn't be able to keep them contained.
