Author Topic: U.S. vs Iraq  (Read 1493 times)

Offline Toad

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U.S. vs Iraq
« Reply #30 on: May 06, 2002, 11:08:25 AM »
Weazel, your current jihad against the present President notwithstanding, the hydrogen powered autos are coming.

It's simply going to be "good business" and good profits. That's all you need to for it to happen.

Smile.. unclench yer ulcer. The sun will come up tomorrow.  :D
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #31 on: May 06, 2002, 11:16:53 AM »
I am in the RV (Recreational Vehicle) business, and the Government just gave an $80 million grant to Onan generators to develope a fuel cell for RV's. I think this technology is right around the relative corner.

Offline midnight Target

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Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
A bunch of liberals protesting the war at home, turning America onto itself ...

That is the only way we can lose - by beating ourselves...


A bunch of conservatives shutting down free speech would be much worse than any anti-war protest. What the heck are we fighting for anyway? Conservative values, or American values?

Offline weazel

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« Reply #33 on: May 06, 2002, 12:00:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Weazel, your current jihad against the present President notwithstanding, the hydrogen powered autos are coming.

It's simply going to be "good business" and good profits. That's all you need to for it to happen.

Smile.. unclench yer ulcer. The sun will come up tomorrow.  :D


Then I'll shut up. :D

Offline Fatty

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« Reply #34 on: May 06, 2002, 03:38:47 PM »
Hey, that looks a lot like our CINC!

Offline Elfenwolf

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« Reply #35 on: May 06, 2002, 04:07:18 PM »
Weazel,
To combine the image of President Bush with that of a chimpanzee goes beyond the boundries of good taste and decency. You owe that chimp an immediate apology for insulting him in such a manner.

Offline Tac

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« Reply #36 on: May 06, 2002, 04:32:18 PM »
"You owe that chimp an immediate apology "

*SNORK* ROFTLMAO :D :D

Offline weazel

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Did you notice...
« Reply #37 on: May 06, 2002, 06:12:24 PM »
He has "Chuckys" eyes in addition to the chimp features? :D

No chimps were harmed in the making of this picture.

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #38 on: May 06, 2002, 06:12:40 PM »
To assault any nation directly with the intent to control that nation completly requires a tripod.. air, sea and land superiority and control.

We have the potential to project and control all three legs of the tripod over iraq... I am aware of no weapons systems that can effictively cancel our ability to dominate the combat area short of two things..

attrition... and weapons of mass destruction.

Should saddam be able to effectively kick out one of the legs of the tripod, say by nuking a CVBG or by gassing our ground forces enmasse.. then the nature of the game changes. The US will suddenly be entirely un-interested in merely controlling the battle field, and will no doubt switch the goal to something a little more practical under the circumstances... and use weapons of mass destruction of its own.

...and Iraq will be uninhabitable for a few thousand years.

I rather suspect the scenario will never get a chance to play out... if the US satisfactorily erects it's 'tripod' over iraq again, saddam will be snuffed by an iraqi.. the generals know without question what would happen to them if they lost a second time to us.. and THEY know they cannot win.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline streakeagle

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« Reply #39 on: May 06, 2002, 06:31:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by fdiron
Now I could be wrong on this, but I think the last BVR (beyond visual range) missle kill by a U.S. fighter was by an F4 Phantom which shot down 2 F105 Thunderchiefs during the Vietnam war.  Since then, there have been serious restrictions on BVR missle launches during combat (if any at all).


Umm... most of the kills in Desert Storm were BVR by Eagles with Sparrows. AWACS does wonderful things for IFF. When you see where the aircraft takes off from, you pretty much know whether its friendly or enemy.

As it was, the USAF staged one successful BVR in Vietnam in May of 1972, though the flight leader, Major Robert Lodge, was shot down by MiG-19s while trying to finish off a MiG-21 that survived the BVR attack.

Neither the MiG-29 or Su-27 has yet to demonstrate the ability to shoot down a US fighter BVR. MiG-29s have definitely been falling to our missiles.
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Offline Durr

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« Reply #40 on: May 06, 2002, 08:25:13 PM »
I dont feel like getting into this US vs Iraq argument right now, but I will provide some facts relating to previous posts in this thread:

1.  M-1s do not currently use reactive armour.  We did use some M-60 MBTs in Desert storm that had reactive armour though.  

2.  Stealth is relative.  Stealth planes arent invisible to radar, they just have much reduced radar signature, meaning that they show on radar only at very short ranges.  

3.  Many BVR kills were recorded in Vietnam and since by the US.  There were free fire zones in Vietnam where fighters could use their long range missiles BVR, and in Desert Storm, AWACs and much improved IFF allowed the ROE to be modified to allow some BVR shooting.  We also have something now called NCTR, the way it works is classified, but suffice it to say that it can tell what kind of plane the radar is looking at by using some cool gee-whiz computer trickery.  

4.  Most experts would agree that  between the original F-16 and Mig-29, the Fulcrum was better in many ways.  However, the current block Viper is WAY ahead of the latest model Fulcrums.  The original F-16s couldnt carry long range A-A missiles, had inferior radar, and were less powerful than they are today.  Current F-16s are more reliable, have vastly more capable radar systems, and carry the awesome AMRAAM missile.  The Mig-29 hasnt been improved that much in the past 20 years.  The Mig-29M finally got some improved avionics, and a glass cockpit but it still lags way behind the F-16 in almost every way.  The F-15 is superior to them both in every respect except ultimate manouverability in a close in fight.  The best Russian fighter isnt the Fulcrum though, its the Su-27 Flanker (not including prototypes such as the Mig-142 which will probably never be built, and the Su-35, which isnt operational yet).  The Flanker is superior in many repects even to a new F-16, and even in some ways to the F-15.  Pilot skill and tactics are the main thing in air combat though, as we all well know from AH.  Besides, even if Iraq had 100 really good Mig-29 pilots and he was somehow able to get 100 Fulcrums into the air, we have 1,381 F-16s, and 737 F-15s (not to mention all the USN and USMC Hornets and Tomcats).  Soon we will have the F-22 which is light years beyond any current fighter.  

Saddam would be stupid to even try to counter the might of the US head on.  He would be better served by using assymetric tactics to try to counter some of our weaker areas in which he may have some relative strength.  Fortunately, we are aware that this is exactly what he will probably try to do, and we will be extra vigilant in countering the few strengths that he has.  It is critical that he does not acquire nuclear weapons however.  This would provide him with a weapon that we really cannot counter at this point, although he wouldnt have the means to deliver it to the US.  His most likely target would be Israel.  I dont know if he is really irrational enough to use nuclear weapons against Israel, but I do know that if he gets nuclear weapons, the Israelis will probably not sit around and play waiting games.  A scenario where Israel launches a preemptive war against Iraq could be disastrous in the powder-keg of the Middle East and might result in a full scale war in the region.  We would most  almost certainly side with Israel in such a case, and many of the other Middle Eastern nations would possibly side with Iraq.  I dont think there is any doubt about who would win in the end, but such a war would be a tremendous disaster in terms of human life lost, and material cost.  

Hopefully the Arab nations will realize that Saddam is a loose cannon, and cooperate with our efforts to remove him from power.  A short, wellplanned campaign, using good intelligence, special operations, and airpower might succeed in rapidly toppling Saddam.  Contrary to what you might think, Saddam would probably be easier to find than Osama has been, due to the larger train that he is forced to carry around with him.  With real-time intelligence literally getting better by the day, we wait until we know where he is, launch a rapid strike to take him out, and have a plan ready as to how to fill the vacuum created.  This is all much easier said than done (if it was easy it would have already been done), but a bad situation is brewing on down the road if he develops WMD beyond what he already has.  Hopefully the bugger will just die a natural death soon, and somebody more reasonable will take his place.

By the way, I disagree with the assertion that armour always lags behind weaponry.  The race between arms and armour goes back and forth.  First one will be ahead, then the other, as engineers and designers work to overcome new technologies.   Want an example?  Stealth again provides us with one.  It was practically invincible when it first was used, setting engineers worldwide scrambling to find a way to defeat it.  Now there are at least 5 technologies that offer a way to counter stealth at least to a large degree.  However, stealth technology isnt static either.  Large advances have been made in this field as well, negating many of the efforts that have been made against it.  The B-2 is many times larger than the F-117 yet it has almost the same radar signature (actually it has a slightly smaller signature).    

Wow, this wasnt supposed to be a long post, and I wasnt supposed to get into this argument.  Oh well, I like a good debate too much to be able to stay out of one.  :)
« Last Edit: May 06, 2002, 08:29:00 PM by Durr »

Offline fdiron

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« Reply #41 on: May 06, 2002, 09:54:45 PM »
Quote
Umm... most of the kills in Desert Storm were BVR by Eagles with Sparrows. AWACS does wonderful things for IFF. When you see where the aircraft takes off from, you pretty much know whether its friendly or enemy


The Sparrow is barely a BVR missle.  It has a max range of ~15 miles doesnt it?

Offline Durr

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« Reply #42 on: May 06, 2002, 10:56:30 PM »
Depends on the conditions, but I will not say the exact range here since its classified, but lets say you are right and the range of the Sparrow is 15 miles.  Fifteen miles is well beyond visual range.  You can barely see a fighter plane at 5-7 miles under perfect conditions.  Anything beyond that and there is no way.  If you dont believe that, think how hard it is to see a airliner, which is much larger than a fighter, at 35,000 feet from the ground.  You mainly spot the airliner from its contrails, but the plane itself is just a speck and thats at between 6 and 7 miles against a blue background.

Offline Russian

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Re: Re: U.S. vs Iraq
« Reply #43 on: May 07, 2002, 12:26:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by 8ball


1) There is no SAM that can defeat stealth technology, and the B-2 or F-117 would be the first planes to strike Iraqi air-defense installations, just like our prior war with them.  Yugoslavia had the most advanced air-defense network in the world until we started bombing them.  Hundreds of days of bombing and we lost one plane.


2) no country in the world could stop a direct attack from the US.



1)   I think you should rethink that statement. Yugoslavia had very toejamy air-defense network with Soviet made “expired” missiles. (Missiles motors do have to be replaced, they don’t last forever) They did had very few S-300 systems and US never showed face in that location.

2)             If country has nuclear weapons US will be stopped, and very quickly.

There isn’t a point of arguing about this, US will attack and Iraq will try to defend it self with what ever means necessary, may it be nukes or Cam war.

Offline streakeagle

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« Reply #44 on: May 07, 2002, 01:48:16 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by fdiron
The Sparrow is barely a BVR missle.  It has a max range of ~15 miles doesnt it?


Depends greatly on target aspect, alt, and speed and launching aircraft's alt and speed. A headon shot at medium range and subsonic speeds is typically fired inside of 20 miles, 10 to 15 being the norm from the accounts I have read.

The accounts I read from desert storm indicated that the pilots didn't even get to see the missiles hit, they had to close the range to look for chutes and wreckage to confirm the hits/kills. The majority of the kills scored in desert storm were Sparrow kills, and the majority of Sparrow kills were BVR.

At higher alts and speeds, the Sparrow can be fired when the target is over 60 miles away.

A MiG-21, the type engaged in the Vietnam BVR of Oyster flight, is barely visible at 2 miles from head on. Oyster flight fired from outside of 8 miles (older sparrows) and got close enough to see the detonations as they occurred, eliminating 2 of the 4 MiG-21s in the target flight. Future Vietnam ace Capt. Steve Ritchie was part of Oyster flight and killed one of the 2 remaining MiG-21s with a stern shot. Major Lodge was too close to fire and was trying to open range when a flight of MiG-19s ripped up his F-4D with cannon fire. Net score: 3 MiG-21s for 1 F-4D thanks to the BVR capability. Of the 4 F-4Ds, one had a radar malfunction, so the actual odds were 3 F-4Ds versus 8 MiGs. If Major Lodge had heeded the warning of his wingman, he might not have died :( Target fixation... it would have been his 2nd kill of the day and his 4th overall... he wanted to be the first Vietnam ace so bad that it killed him. His WSO bailed successfully and was captured. Don't know why Major Lodge never bailed since he was flying the plane when his WSO ejected.
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