Author Topic: Our Current Energy Policy  (Read 529 times)

Offline Durr

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« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2002, 01:59:06 PM »
I agree with funked on the economic side of this.  A study of economics shows that we will likely never run out of oil completely because the increasing scarcity of petroleum will cause the price to skyrocket, reducing demand and causing other technologies to come to the forefront.  Once some other technology becomes cheaper than oil, or oil becomes more expensive, that technology will take the lead.  There is the possibility of course that the transition time could cause a recession in the economy (due to both the outgoing fuel and incoming fuel both being expensive for a time) but it shouldnt be anything major.  

For our electricity needs, we should indeed make the switch to nuclear.  It is the cleanest and safest means of generating power available.  This alone would be a major cause of reduced pollution and petroleum consumption.  

As to our transportation needs, fuel cells and hybrids will become more popular I think, as they get better, and cars will become more efficient over time as they always do.  The answer isnt for the government to force people or manufacturers by limiting horsepower or anything like that though.  I am vehemently opposed to anything of the sort, even to a underhanded attempt to limit power by using taxes.  Freedom includes the freedom to drive a 400+ horsepower car if I choose to and can afford it (I wish I could afford one hehe, Ill take a black BMW M5 please).

  I have never seen a estimate, not even from the most pessimistic source, that claims that we will run out of petroleum within the next 20 years, even given current growth rates.  Twenty years from now is a long time given the rapid technological advances that have been made within the last 20.  Im not saying we will be riding around in personal hovorcraft or anything like that, but all that we really need is a breakthrough in battery technology, and electric powered cars could have greater range and performance than gas powered ones do.  

The potential is there, limited only by the state of current batteries, which are heavy and have limited output before needing a recharge.  Given batteries that would last a reasonable amount of time before needing a charge, and that weigh less than existing ones, cars could be made that would be much faster than current gas ones, (due to the linear power curve of electric motors and the fact that their torque peaks right away).  The batteries would either need to be rapidly changable or quickly chargable, so that switching out battery packs or recharging batteries would be comparable to getting gas today.  The end result of this is that the nuclear power plants would be providing for our transportation needs as well as our other electrical needs.  This would be the ideal state of things in my opinion.  All that is needed for this to happen is a breakthrough in batteries, and a change in the mindset of people that are irrationally afraid of nuclear power, neither of which will probably happen anytime soon unfortunately.  If we could start with the nuclear power plants now though, that would help.

Offline funkedup

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« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2002, 03:52:21 PM »
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I have never seen a estimate, not even from the most pessimistic source, that claims that we will run out of petroleum within the next 20 years, even given current growth rates.


People have been making claims like that for about 100 years.  Same for global food shortages too.  The sky is falling!  ;)

Offline funkedup

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« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2002, 03:53:42 PM »
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To even claim economics is as succinct as evolutionary biology is absurd. :)


To claim that economics (patterns of human behavior) are not governed by the same factors which govern evolutionary biology, now THAT is absurd.  :)

Offline Skuzzy

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« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2002, 05:22:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by funkedup


People have been making claims like that for about 100 years.  Same for global food shortages too.  The sky is falling!  ;)


Okay funked, you really do not believe our planet will never run out of oil?

We will run out, but the problem is, no one can really say for sure when it will happen.  Those foolish enough to estimate when we will run out just set themselves up for a proper dose of embarassment.
A lot of the economic arguments are predicated on knowing when we will run out of oil.  The argument being, when oil becomes harder to come by, the price will rise and force us to alternative methods of fuel.
This may work, but this will only work if we assume oil will gradually become less available.

Anyone ever worked on an oil rig?  For the most part, when it goes dry, it just stops producing.  There really is no warning, it just stops.  It might burble or burp for a few days before stopping, but not much in the way of a warning is issued before it stops.
Oil resevoirs are much like underground lakes.  When you get to the bottom, it is done.  We can squeeze more out of it, by using steam scouring and some other chemical methods, but not much more can be gotten out of a dry well.
Note also, most of the resevoirs are large pools and not disjointed bubbles in the ground.  Many oil rigs are used to tap the pools to get as much as they can out of the lake as fast as they can.  So when one rig goes dry, then many more will go dry very soon afterwards.
About the only thing that would cause us to ntice we may be running out would start when the first major field goes dry.  Even then we may just sit back and say, well,..there are more fields.  It may take a few major fields going dry before someone starts getting concerned.

It's all a timing issue.  If oil goes away over a 1 month period of time, we are in serious trouble.  If it goes away over a period of years, then we may not be in nearly as much trouble.
But therein lies the basic problem.  We are gambling that when oil starts to dry up, we will have time to react to it.  I do not know about you, but I call that a bad gamble.
And it boils down to us not really knowing when oil will go away.  Sounds like everyone is ready to gamble that oil will go away very slowly.  I hope you are right, but I would rather hedge my bets.
Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
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Offline funkedup

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« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2002, 05:45:57 PM »
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If oil goes away over a 1 month period of time, we are in serious trouble. If it goes away over a period of years, then we may not be in nearly as much trouble.


I think something like 10 years seems more likely.  Oil comes from many sources and there are many methods of exploiting less-than-ideal oil sources which are not currently used because it is more cost-effective to just drill somewhere else.

If things start drying up these methods will become more attractive and previously unavailable supplies will become available.  But at much greater cost.

The higher cost of exploiting these sources would also spur exploration efforts and technology.  A lot of the exploration and exploitation technology being deployed today could not have been dreamed of 50 years ago.  What makes you think that 50 years from now they won't have exploration and exploitation technology that we couldn't dream of today?

But no matter what happens with technology, at some point the price will go up drastically as supplies get really thin.  This is a fundamental economic truth - increased scarcity means increased competition for resources means higher prices.  Barring government interference, the increased cost will provide economic motivation to use non-petroleum energy sources.  

Necessity is the mother of invention.  There are plenty of alternative energy technologies ready to be developed.  All the economy is waiting for is an increase in petroleum prices to make it cost-effective to develop these technologies.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2002, 06:03:43 PM by funkedup »

Offline funkedup

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« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2002, 05:54:54 PM »
Something that will help you understand what I am talking about:  http://www.fe.doe.gov/education/oil_history.html


It's not like sucking the last drops of a soda through a straw, or running your car out of gas.  It's more like trying to squeeze all the soap out of one of those big car-washing sponges.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2002, 06:04:53 PM by funkedup »

Offline Skuzzy

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« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2002, 08:03:12 PM »
Yes funked, I am aware of how oil is formed and so on,..my poor choice of an analogy about the lake.  The supply of oil is limited, no matter how we look at it.

It still does not answer the "when" question, which is one that may never be answered.  The fact we are having to squeeze out what is left is good indication we are starting to get to the end of the barrel.  The estimates are a best guess, as much as anyone guessing when we will run out is.

No one knows how or when it will happen, but it will happen.  We will run out of oil one day.  Maybe not in my lifetime or yours, but we will run out.
I just do not like the fact we are somewhat waiting for that day to come.  I think it is a bad gamble.
Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
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Offline miko2d

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« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2002, 10:49:15 AM »
Durr: Freedom includes the freedom to drive a 400+ horsepower car if I choose to and can afford it

 It's a bit more complex then that. The price of gas you buy does not include military and other costs of securing the oil supplies - including opposing the authoritarian regimes and terrorists that your money ends up suporting. It does not include (huge) monetary cost of me being drafted and possible killed to defend your driving habits.
 So untill you monetize every aspect and risk of your gas purchasing properly and pay for it completely, your statement would not be correct.

 Our freedom to interfere in foreigh affairs (that can have negative implications on US) and to support regimes/groups hostile to US is limited. I think driving 400+ horsepower car is one of those cases.

 Once you start supporting your habits entirely out of your pocket (rather then tax-payers) and carry all the risks, then the subject really becomes one of your freedom.
 Until then - you may try to use your vote to get some of my money and my blood to subcidise your toys and I will use my vote to oppose you.

On oil shortage:
 The issue is no that Saudi Arabia will run out of oil in 20 years - it will not. In fact in 20 years SA's share of production will probably increase from 25% to 40%. The problem is that they may easily become a hostile power with undue influence on our life.

 US lost billions in the oil crises and terrorist attacks, maintaining bases, etc. A fraction of that would have paid for a lot of development of advance energy concepts and stimulated ecoomy in the process.

 miko
« Last Edit: May 09, 2002, 10:52:45 AM by miko2d »

Offline Charon

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« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2002, 11:02:48 AM »
Some interesting discussions :)

A few points I might add:

Total oil reserves are a big question mark. As any two "experts" and you'll get three different answers. I've heard estimates of 40 years, 20 years and even one "theory" that there is an unexhaustable supply of oil that constantly replinishes itself. I would agree with those who say that 20-60 years from now, even with new scientific advances in drilling and extraction, we will begin to see some significant price increases as all of the easy oil is used up. Then, we'll see motivation for a change in fuel sources at least in the transportation sector. Hopefully, as Skuzzy noted, there will be time for a more orderly transition to the next phase.

I have to agree with Funked and Rip's sentiments about government involvement/management/regulation -- but, there are some interesting factors to consider in the current unregulated market.

We currently have a refinery capacity deficiency, which is why we have such a degree of price volitility today. In the summer time our domestic refineries are running at about 98 percent to meet demand, so any disruption at a refinery or pipeline means potential regional shortages which lead to wholesale price adjustments like you would see in any commidities market (the last thing a retailer wants is dry tanks, and the supply chain adjusts price accordingly when fuel is scare or buyers scared :)). Price can and will jump 25-cents per gallon because suddenly that is what the retailer finds his/her supply going for that morning.

Now, refining is not big oil. In fact, the majors are anxious to sell of their refining operations to independent operators when they can because it is a more risky and less profitable area of their operations.

We had refining overcapacity more than a decade ago, which was less profitable (but enjoyable to motorists) and the industry adjusted this in some very free-market ways. There is no incentive for the industry to promote overcapacity (they will blame it on environmental/construction issues which is only half the story) since they make less money with overcapacity and make more money with the market as it exists today. Similarly, from the production end, oil companies shut down viable wells each year that cannot be restarted, because the oil is unecomonical on the market at today's prices.

The Bush oil policy has a lot of corporate welfare for oil companies aimed at making refining more profitable and keeping non-viable oil wells in production. Although I hate corporate welfare (see it as far more of an issue than the "traditional" welfare people get riled up about), I'm hard pressed to see an incentive for the oil companies to take care of this problem on their own without this welfare incentive or some form of regulation. Given the role oil plays as a non-optional commodity in our way of life, regulation is probably more justified than it might be normally (and I dislike ham-fisted regulation about as much as I dislike corporate welfare). Perhaps the answer is the threat of regulation with a few incentives to help them look past the shareholders a bit and concentrate more on our needs as drivers.

As for fuel cells, the problem lies with the infrastructure and where you put the hydrogen reactor. In the car you have weight cost and complexity, but you can use the existing gasoline infrastructure pretty well. If you site the reactors at a traditional gas stations or local/regional hubs, my understanding is that you need some combination (depending upon approach) of compressed liquid hydrogen pipelines, high-pressure underground/above ground storage tanks, tanker trucks and fuel tanks in cars which is even a bit more disturbing than driving around with a tank of gasoline in the back. This has been done with LNG, etc. but I don't beleive on anywhere the scale or with complexity of distribution channel required for transportaion use. All these issues can be overcome, but not easily or economically in the near future.

The hybrid vehicles I mentioned earlier are a good approach that is/can be fielded today, but would likely take some regulation to be appealing to both consumers (with our cheap gas) and automakers (with consumers liking to use small trucks to carry a single passenger on a 70-mile daily commute). I think we've already proven a willingness in the USA to pay for gas up to and beyond $2.00 a gallon and I've head it would need to reach $4.00 or so before people really began to change their driving and purchasing patterns in a significant way.

Charon
« Last Edit: May 09, 2002, 11:11:16 AM by Charon »

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2002, 11:47:15 AM »
I have my order in for a "Mr. Fusion":cool:

Offline Skuzzy

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« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2002, 12:14:17 PM »
One more thought on this.  Why wait until we have to convert to another type of resource?  Why not do it before we get into an economic crunch?
Seems it would make much more sense and would keep the economy from doing a yo-yo.

I know,..it is a silly idea.  What!  You mean be pro-active as opposed to reactionary!  BLASPHEMER! :)
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Offline funkedup

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« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2002, 12:45:21 PM »
Because the other sources cost more Skuzzy.  As a business owner you should know better.  Go stand in the corner!!! :)

Offline Skuzzy

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« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2002, 12:46:46 PM »
My bad :D

I was just thinking that the costs today would be lower than the costs tomorrow.....

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Offline miko2d

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« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2002, 04:06:30 PM »
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
I was just thinking that the costs today would be lower than the costs tomorrow.....


 Or the major upheaval caused by oil shortage may cause a famine, strife and significant drop in US population.
 Then we would only have to build nuclear and wind powerplants to supply, say, 100 million people instead of 300 millions.

 miko