Author Topic: F4u climb rate ?  (Read 1788 times)

Offline Hooligan

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F4u climb rate ?
« Reply #60 on: May 16, 2002, 12:59:07 PM »
Okay I just want to make sure I understand this.

The F4U-1D in AH is modeled with pylons on (i.e. combat condition not clean condition).  The weight of evidence indicates that clean condition was atypical: It's only mentioned in a footnote in the navy docs and most pictures I have seen of F4Us have had drop-tanks, rockets or something hanging off of them.  Sounds fair enough to me.

This is a bit of a segue but an interesting use for perk points (IMO) is to make atypical configurations available for a small perk cost (i.e. clean F4U-1Ds, assuming that somebody comes up with proof that they were used as day fighters:  F6Fs with the mixed battery, LW rides with the rare mods, spits with the 9 billion octane gas, F4Us with cannon armament :) etc...)

And as long as we are talking about F4U's, an early FG-1 with no WEP and lacking carrier gear and folding wings would be a cool addition.  Please keep it in mind for one of the next 50 planes or so.

Hooligan

Offline F4UDOA

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F4u climb rate ?
« Reply #61 on: May 16, 2002, 03:35:26 PM »
Pyro,

I hope you read this because I really hate not knowing if you guy's read or don't read post. It takes to much energy to do the research to not even get an acknowledgment that it got read. Anyway I hope you read this.

I had no intention of trying to get the F4U-1D speed uprated. If it was your choice to model it with Pylons and rocket rails so be it. I was simply pointing out one possible reason in the desparity between F4U flight test against the A6M2/5, F6F-3/5 and FW190A5. In all of these test with no exception the F4U outclimbed it's opposition at the F4U's best climb speed of 155MPH. This is not the case in AH. The drag penalty of the pylons and rails was one possible explanation in my mind.

HOWEVER (there is always "one more thing" like Columbo say's).

If the F4U-1D in it's typical configuration is to be modeled with Pylons and Rocket rails should not all AH fighters with extensive ground attack capability be modeled with there Pylons and rocket rails ala the P-47, F6F, P-51 and FW-190? Remember late in the war there were not that many enemy A/C to shoot down. Most action sorties were ground attack. The F4U is a paradox in this regard because it fighter capabilties were enhanced with a prop change, Up rated HP, canopy, etc. but it is limited in AH by additional drag. The P-37D-30 was also used in this manor but is not penalized in AH. Should A/C that did not ordinarly carry ordinace such as the NIK2 or Spit not be allowed to carry any because it was not the "typical configuration?

IMHO all AH A/C should be modeled on an even playing field regardless of the special circumstances of the war. What many people do not realize is how much the F4U was considered superior as a fighter bomber compared to the F6F. It dropped nearly three times as many bombs and rockets, and yet had far less losses both operationally and in action despite flying almost exactly the same amount of missions.  

Here is the record.

Offline dtango

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F4u climb rate ?
« Reply #62 on: May 16, 2002, 04:47:09 PM »
Hooligan:

Hey- that is a really neat idea regarding perk points for special modifications / atypical aircraft configurations.  :cool:  I like it.


F4UDOA:

I'm only guessing but I wager for Pyro to come up with the flight models one of the methods he uses to determine performance to base the flight model off of when he has more than a few sources of performance data is to model the performance that can be considered more or less statistically in the realm of 1 or 2 sigma (65%-95%) region of the normal distribution of all the data he has- hence typical vs. atypical configurations.

You can debate if this is "fair" or not and the side of the debate you choose depends on your definition of what is "fair".  However, If Pyro is approaching his flight modelling somewhat like what I described above then I think your definition of an even playing field would #1 make it more complicated for Pyro to model aircraft (e.g. have to find performance data for the specific configuration you are looking for) and #2 introduce inaccuracy to the flight model (e.g. have to base FM on a single report that has noticable variances from other reports).

Just my opinion :)

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
Tango / Tango412 412th FS Braunco Mustangs
"At times it seems like people think they can chuck bunch of anecdotes into some converter which comes up with the flight model." (Wmaker)

Offline F4UDOA

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F4u climb rate ?
« Reply #63 on: May 16, 2002, 11:17:12 PM »
Dtango,

Actually when Pyro does a flight model his specs match the performance specs of the charts 100% on all A/C in which the information is available with 0% variance. I say this because I have tested all of the F4U's flight characteristics down to cruise speeds and fuel consumption at different manifold pressures. And I can tell you that they match exactly.

All I am saying is that if the P-47 used the exact same external stores pylons then why is the F4U-1D the only A/C in AH that is modeled with them regardless of loadout? Is it a typical load out? Yes, but it would have been on many other A/C during the later years of the war due to simple lack of anything airborne to shoot at.

In the end it would make it easier to model A/C and say that unless you are carrying ordinance you are not penalized for external drag. I would say that there is more detailed information available on the F4U than just about every other A/C in AH allied or axis. Based on that I would say that getting detailed drag information on the LA-7 or NIK2 is almost impossible, but the F4U-1D should not be unique because of this.

Offline dtango

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F4u climb rate ?
« Reply #64 on: May 16, 2002, 11:54:43 PM »
F4UDOA:

Just wanted to clarify that I didn't mean HTC would pool all the data together from different flight performance reports, but that it would make sense to base it off of a report that fell within close performance proximity to the collection of the majority of the reports since you have a higher statistical confidence in the accuracy of the report you are basing your FM from and that you aren't using some anomolous performance data.  In our specific case it sounds like that there are quite a few performance reports on the F4U-1D and that the no pylon drag information only shows up on just one of the reports and that as a footnote.  In my opinion I would go with the data that seems to match with the majority of data that I have.

This doesn't detract from your point however and your point is well taken.  Obviously I can't say that I agree with you regarding the "fairness" of doing what you suggested.  Personally I think Pyro's decision to go with the approach of "typical" modelling is just as fair.  You've made a good point though.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
Tango / Tango412 412th FS Braunco Mustangs
"At times it seems like people think they can chuck bunch of anecdotes into some converter which comes up with the flight model." (Wmaker)

Offline Vermillion

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F4u climb rate ?
« Reply #65 on: May 17, 2002, 08:27:56 AM »
Quote
And as long as we are talking about F4U's, an early FG-1 with no WEP and lacking carrier gear and folding wings would be a cool addition.


Nice idea Hooli.... but you mistyped it ! ;) It should be an early F2G Corsair :D

Offline F4UDOA

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F4u climb rate ?
« Reply #66 on: May 17, 2002, 10:47:35 AM »
Gents,

Just as an aside. Another A/C in AH that has the pylons visible in AH in all conditions but suffers no drag penalty is the F4U-4.

Just a little irony I thought.