Author Topic: Target for today: an ice cream parlor  (Read 280 times)

Offline Hortlund

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Target for today: an ice cream parlor
« on: May 28, 2002, 01:24:10 AM »
Two fatalities, a 2 year old baby girl and an old woman (her grandmother). 44 injured, including a baby in serious condition.
According to an eyewitness the bomber aimed at "children and babies who were sitting with their parents at the cafe near the supermarket".

The bomber, an 18 yr old Palestinian. In one of the previous attacks this week the bomber was 16. Apparently they are going down the ages to find new butchers.  18 and 16? They are using kids. They are using kids to murder infants.

Take a look at the timeframe here. In March we had lots of attacks, almost one a day. Then the Jenin operation combined with the isolation of Arafat virtually halted all attacks against Israel. Then Israel was forced to back out of Jenin and release Arafat and immideately the suicide attacks began again.  

Hmm...But hey, at least Arafat says he is against the terrorist attacks...

Offline babek-

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« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2002, 01:35:33 AM »
Attack... Counterattack... Attack... Counterattack...

All in the name of revenge.

The one use tanks the other suicide-bombers.

The victims are in most cases innocents.

This will continue until both sides manage to find a political solution.

Fact is that neither Sharons military mob could end this nor Arafats fanatic suicide bombers.

These news become boring - in the news-reports they are no top messages anymore.
And I think its OK - if they are so stupid not to find political solutions they should continue to kill themselves.

There are actually more disturbing news in the world - like the crisis of India/Pakistan with a possible nuclear war.

Offline Tumor

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« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2002, 01:59:15 AM »
Originally posted by babek-
Attack... Counterattack... Attack... Counterattack...

All in the name of revenge.


How is Isreal doing what is necessary to stop the bombings revenge?  I don't get that.

This will continue until both sides manage to find a political solution.

I figure it will go on at some level until one side or the other is removed from play.  A political solution would be temporary (long term maybe) at best.

Fact is that neither Sharons military mob could end this nor Arafats fanatic suicide bombers.

I recall Sharon's military mob pretty much halting the bombing until they pulled back.  And, you can bet they will push back in again.


There are actually more disturbing news in the world - like the crisis of India/Pakistan with a possible nuclear war.

So?  Sad response but true.  Paks hit India, India hits Paks, lots of people die and neither has any nukes or the means to produce them any more.  The stock markets would probably take a dip and there would be some localized environmental issues.  If the rest of the world really gave a crap I don't really think either would have nukes to begin with.  JMHO
"Dogfighting is useless"  :Erich Hartmann

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2002, 02:01:06 AM »
Well, babek... I'm sorry that you find it boring.

I'm pretty sure that the parents of that 2 yr old girl disagrees though.

Offline babek-

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« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2002, 02:42:34 AM »
@tumor: If Pakistan and India wouldnt have nukes - it would be again a boring stupid conventional war for some territories and with thousands of victims.

But because of the fact that they have nukes and are maybe willing to use them the effect of the radioactive material would be hitting every country in this world.

Just take the simple Tschernobyl effect on Europe and then try to imagine what horror would happen throughout the world if the India and Pakistan use 10 or 20 nukes...

That is very disturbing.

@hortlund: Surely the parents disagree - like all relatives of all victims in this conflict they are suffering greatly.

But just see when this news was reported here in the news-report:
1st there came a report about Bush´s visit in France, then one aout the crisis in India/Pakistan, then two inner-politic reports and then - as the fifth message it was reported that there was a suicide attack.

After so much reports in the last year it seems no longer worth to be a top report which comes first.

It has become like a boring ritual:

Report One: Suicide attack
Today a suicie bomber killed himself and XYZ israeli civilians in XYZ. Arafat condemed this attack as counterproductive for the palestines and Sharon promised revenge. Then pictures of the crying survivors relatives are shown...

Report Two: Israeli operation
Today israeli military forcess marched in the autonomeous palestine city of XYZ searching for terrorists. XYZ palestines were killed. Arafat condemed this as an attack against palestine civilians while Sharon told that only terrorists were killed. Then pictures of the crying survivors relatives are shown...

After you get these two versions hundreds on time on TV it really becomes boring.

The individual tragedies are so reduced by the repeating news reports.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2002, 02:45:20 AM by babek- »

Offline wsnpr

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Re: Target for today: an ice cream parlor
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2002, 03:19:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund
Two fatalities, a 2 year old baby girl and an old woman (her grandmother). 44 injured, including a baby in serious condition.
According to an eyewitness the bomber aimed at "children and babies who were sitting with their parents at the cafe near the supermarket".

The bomber, an 18 yr old Palestinian. In one of the previous attacks this week the bomber was 16. Apparently they are going down the ages to find new butchers.  18 and 16? They are using kids. They are using kids to murder infants.

Take a look at the timeframe here. In March we had lots of attacks, almost one a day. Then the Jenin operation combined with the isolation of Arafat virtually halted all attacks against Israel. Then Israel was forced to back out of Jenin and release Arafat and immideately the suicide attacks began again.  

Hmm...But hey, at least Arafat says he is against the terrorist attacks...





  http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L27416911
 
27 May 2002 16:51
Suicide bombings in Israel

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 
LONDON, May 27 (Reuters) - Two people died and at least 50 were wounded in a suicide bombing outside a shopping centre in the central Israeli city of Petah Tikva on Monday.

Following is a chronology of the main suicide bombings since a Palestinian uprising against Israeli occupation in the West Bank and Gaza Strip began in September 2000.

2000

Oct 26 - Suicide bomber strikes near an Israeli army post in the Gaza Strip, wounding a soldier.

- - - -

2001

March 28 - Suicide bomber kills himself and two Israeli teenagers in Newe Yamin, near central city of Kfar Saba.

April 22, 2001 - Suicide bomber kills doctor and wounds 41 people in rush-hour attack in Kfar Saba.

May 18 - Suicide bomber kills five people and wounds around 60 at crowded Netanya shopping mall.

June 1 - Twenty-two people killed in suicide bomb blast among teenagers waiting to enter Tel Aviv nightclub.

July 16 - Palestinian suicide bomber from Islamic Jihad group kills two Israeli soldiers at bus stop in Israeli town of Binyamina.

Aug 9 - Palestinian suicide bomber blows himself and 15 people up in pizza restaurant in Jerusalem in revenge for Israeli missile strike.

Sept 9 - Israeli Arab blows himself up at railway station in Nahariya, northern Israel, killing three people.

Nov 29 - Palestinian blows himself up on bus in Hadera, killing three Israelis.

Dec 1 - Ten Israelis killed and more than 150 hurt in double Palestinian suicide bombing and car bomb in central Jerusalem.

Dec 2 - Palestinian suicide bomber kills 15 people and wounds 40 on bus in Haifa.

- - - -

2002

Jan 27 - First Palestinian woman suicide bomber, Wafa Idrees, 28, from Al-Amari refugee camp near Ramallah, kills two people and wounds 111 on Jaffa Road in Jerusalem.

Feb 16 - Palestinian suicide bomber kills himself and two Israelis and wounds 20 people in shopping centre in Jewish settlement of Karnei Shomron.

March 2 - Palestinian suicide bomber kills nine people, including five children. and himself in ultra-Orthodox neighbourhood of Jerusalem.

March 5 - Suicide bomber blows himself up on bus in Galilee city of Afula, killing one Israeli.

March 9 - Suicide bomber kills 13 people and injures more than 50 in crowded Moment Cafe in Jerusalem near Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's residence.

March 20 - Bomber kills at least seven people including himself and wounds 27 on bus near Israeli Arab town of Umm al-Fahm..

March 21 - Bomber kills himself and three other people in heart of West Jerusalem.

March 27 - Suicide bomber kills 29 people and wounds more than 100 in lobby of seaside Park Hotel in resort town of Netanya.

March 29 - Woman suicide bomber kills two people and wounded 20 at supermarket in Kiryat Yovel suburb of Jerusalem.

March 31 - Suicide bomber kills 15 people, wounds 44 in restaurant run by Israeli Arabs in northern Israeli port Haifa. Six people wounded at Jewish settlement of Efrat in West Bank in second suicide attack.

April 10 - Suicide bomber kills eight Israelis and wounds 12 on bus crowded with commuters near Haifa.

April 12 - Female suicide bomber kills six people and wounded nearly 100 at Jerusalem's main outdoor Mahane Yehuda market.

May 8 - Bomber kills 15 Israelis, wounds 60 at snooker club in Rishon Letzion south of Tel Aviv.

May 19 - A suicide bomber blows himself up in a market in Netanya killing three other people and wounding at least 35.

May 22 - Suicide bomber kills two people, wounds 27 at town of Rishon Letzion.

May 27 - Two people dead, at least 50 wounded in suicide bombing outside shopping centre in Petah Tikva.

Offline Nashwan

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Target for today: an ice cream parlor
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2002, 03:32:03 AM »
Quote
Take a look at the timeframe here. In March we had lots of attacks, almost one a day. Then the Jenin operation combined with the isolation of Arafat virtually halted all attacks against Israel. Then Israel was forced to back out of Jenin and release Arafat and immideately the suicide attacks began again.

Death toll of Israeli civilians inside Israel per month

2000
Sep 0
Oct 0
Nov 4
Dec 0

2001
Jan 0
Feb 1
Mar 6
Apr 3
May 5
Jun 18
Jul 1
Aug 14
Sep 0
Oct 8
Nov 6
Dec 23

2002
Jan 9
Feb 1
Mar 65 (Defensive shield launched end march, continued 1 month)
Apr 13 (during defensive shield)
May 23

Many of the March casualties came after Defensive Shield was launched. In total, 29 Israelis were killed by suicide bombers during Defensive Shield.

The figure for April, during the height of Defensive Shield, is one of the highest monthly totals on record. And that's not including IDF casualties during the operation.

Quote
In March we had lots of attacks, almost one a day.

Dates of fatal attacks in March:
2nd
3rd
5th
9th
17th
20th
21st
27th
30th
31st
Quote
Then the Jenin operation combined with the isolation of Arafat virtually halted all attacks against Israel.

Dates of fatal attacks in April:
2nd
3rd
4th
10th
11th
12th
Quote
Then Israel was forced to back out of Jenin and release Arafat and immideately the suicide attacks began again.

Dates of fatal attacks in May:
5th
6th
19th
22nd
27th

Where does the IDF say most suicide bombers come from? Jenin.

Look again at the figures:
Jan 9
Feb 1 (stabbed by a Palestinian youth)

March 1st 0
March 1st IDF raids Jenin, kills 8, including a 16 year old boy and a 9 year old girl. Other raids kill 3, including an 8 year old boy.
March 2nd Suicide bomb kills 8
Attacks again on 3rd, 9th etc ad nauseum

Yeah, these raids really work.

Quote
How is Isreal doing what is necessary to stop the bombings revenge? I don't get that.

Read this
http://cbc.ca/cgi-bin/templates/view.cgi?category=World&story=/news/2002/03/19/mideast_censor020319
and watch this video of it http://cbc.ca/clips/ram-lo/macdonald_censored020318.ram

It shows how the IDF blew the door off a family home, injuring a woman inside the house. For an hour her husband and children begged them to allow her to go to hospital in an ambulance, they refused. When she finally got there, she died from her injuries. The soldiers then ransacked the house, and found nothing.

Why is allowing a woman to bleed to death necessary?

And Israel's reaction was at first anger that the TV station had shown the clip, in defiance of the Israeli military censor.

They then appologised, but it is still a regular practice for the IDF to delay medical assistance.

I wonder if the womans son, who's in the video, will grow up wanting revenge?

Some more "necessary" anti-terrorist actions:
26th May a 45 year old woman and her 13 year old daughter were killed whilst walking across a field near their refugee camp. The IDF fired an anti-tank missile at them, saying they thought they were terrorists.

27th May A 50 year old man, sitting at home, was killed when the IDF fired through his window.

27th May A 20 year old severly mentally handicapped man was shot in the leg by a soldier, whilst standing with his hands up, and being covered by an armed policewoman. The soldier had been asleep, woke up, saw the situation and opened fire.

(All these reports come from the Israeli press, not Palestinian sources)

None of this is necessary, it only happens because Israel is engaged in colonizing the West Bank and Gaza. That needs military action, because the land is already occupied.

From todays Haaretz editorial:

First, a month after the forces were withdrawn, it turns out the terrorist infrastructure did not collapse. Despite the large-scale destruction, not only are the leaders of the Palestinian Authority alive and well, but so are the leaders of the terrorist groups - except for Marwan Barghouti, who may yet turn out to be stuck in Sharon's throat, leaving him unable to swallow or regurgitate him. The suicide attacks and the attempted attacks continue. Moreover, there's a new trend, aimed at mass, spectacular attacks. Blowing up the fuel depot at Pi Glilot could have had a thermal effect that would have killed hundreds, if not thousands, between Herzliya and Tel Baruch in a matter of seconds

 Benjamin Ben-Eliezer (Israeli defense minister) was right when he warned ahead of time, and publicly, that if there's no political process within a few weeks, the situation will revert to what it was

The conclusion from the operation is that terror will only be ended through a political settlement, and not by force. Just repeating the scenarios of going in-leaving-arresting-assassinating-leaving, won't end the terrorism.

So, "we taught them a lesson." But the carrot should follow the stick - to initiate ideas, to hint what concessions and confidence-building measures the Palestinians can expect from Sharon, to increase their motivation to get into a political process and start seriously fighting terrorism

Offline wsnpr

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« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2002, 04:11:41 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nashwan

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Take a look at the timeframe here. In March we had lots of attacks, almost one a day. Then the Jenin operation combined with the isolation of Arafat virtually halted all attacks against Israel. Then Israel was forced to back out of Jenin and release Arafat and immideately the suicide attacks began again.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Death toll of Israeli civilians inside Israel per month

2000
Sep 0
Oct 0
Nov 4
Dec 0

2001
Jan 0
Feb 1
Mar 6
Apr 3
May 5
Jun 18
Jul 1
Aug 14
Sep 0
Oct 8
Nov 6
Dec 23

2002
Jan 9
Feb 1
Mar 65 (Defensive shield launched end march, continued 1 month)
Apr 13 (during defensive shield)
May 23

Many of the March casualties came after Defensive Shield was launched. In total, 29 Israelis were killed by suicide bombers during Defensive Shield.

The figure for April, during the height of Defensive Shield, is one of the highest monthly totals on record. And that's not including IDF casualties during the operation.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In March we had lots of attacks, almost one a day.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Dates of fatal attacks in March:
2nd
3rd
5th
9th
17th
20th
21st
27th
30th
31st

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then the Jenin operation combined with the isolation of Arafat virtually halted all attacks against Israel.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Dates of fatal attacks in April:
2nd
3rd
4th
10th
11th
12th

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then Israel was forced to back out of Jenin and release Arafat and immideately the suicide attacks began again.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Dates of fatal attacks in May:
5th
6th
19th
22nd
27th

Where does the IDF say most suicide bombers come from? Jenin.

Look again at the figures:
Jan 9
Feb 1 (stabbed by a Palestinian youth)

March 1st 0
March 1st IDF raids Jenin, kills 8, including a 16 year old boy and a 9 year old girl. Other raids kill 3, including an 8 year old boy.
March 2nd Suicide bomb kills 8
Attacks again on 3rd, 9th etc ad nauseum

Yeah, these raids really work.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How is Isreal doing what is necessary to stop the bombings revenge? I don't get that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Read this
http://cbc.ca/cgi-bin/templates/view.cgi?category=World&story=/news/2002/03/19/mideast_censor020319
and watch this video of it http://cbc.ca/clips/ram-lo/macdonald_censored020318.ram

It shows how the IDF blew the door off a family home, injuring a woman inside the house. For an hour her husband and children begged them to allow her to go to hospital in an ambulance, they refused. When she finally got there, she died from her injuries. The soldiers then ransacked the house, and found nothing.

Why is allowing a woman to bleed to death necessary?

And Israel's reaction was at first anger that the TV station had shown the clip, in defiance of the Israeli military censor.

They then appologised, but it is still a regular practice for the IDF to delay medical assistance.

I wonder if the womans son, who's in the video, will grow up wanting revenge?

Some more "necessary" anti-terrorist actions:
26th May a 45 year old woman and her 13 year old daughter were killed whilst walking across a field near their refugee camp. The IDF fired an anti-tank missile at them, saying they thought they were terrorists.

27th May A 50 year old man, sitting at home, was killed when the IDF fired through his window.

27th May A 20 year old severly mentally handicapped man was shot in the leg by a soldier, whilst standing with his hands up, and being covered by an armed policewoman. The soldier had been asleep, woke up, saw the situation and opened fire.

(All these reports come from the Israeli press, not Palestinian sources)

None of this is necessary, it only happens because Israel is engaged in colonizing the West Bank and Gaza. That needs military action, because the land is already occupied.

From todays Haaretz editorial:

First, a month after the forces were withdrawn, it turns out the terrorist infrastructure did not collapse. Despite the large-scale destruction, not only are the leaders of the Palestinian Authority alive and well, but so are the leaders of the terrorist groups - except for Marwan Barghouti, who may yet turn out to be stuck in Sharon's throat, leaving him unable to swallow or regurgitate him. The suicide attacks and the attempted attacks continue. Moreover, there's a new trend, aimed at mass, spectacular attacks. Blowing up the fuel depot at Pi Glilot could have had a thermal effect that would have killed hundreds, if not thousands, between Herzliya and Tel Baruch in a matter of seconds

 Benjamin Ben-Eliezer (Israeli defense minister) was right when he warned ahead of time, and publicly, that if there's no political process within a few weeks, the situation will revert to what it was

The conclusion from the operation is that terror will only be ended through a political settlement, and not by force. Just repeating the scenarios of going in-leaving-arresting-assassinating-leaving, won't end the terrorism.

So, "we taught them a lesson." But the carrot should follow the stick - to initiate ideas, to hint what concessions and confidence-building measures the Palestinians can expect from Sharon, to increase their motivation to get into a political process and start seriously fighting terrorism


Nashwan, well stated as usual.

Offline babek-

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« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2002, 04:21:16 AM »
@Nashwan -