Ground vehicles are extremely overpowered.

[Zippatuh]

Seems to me that cannon rounds pop M16’s and M3’s with very little hosing, as they should.

I all but stopped trying to hit panzer’s or osti’s with .50’s because it doesn’t seem to do much anymore.

As far as a 37mm shell goes, that’s a lot of bad karma for anything it hits.

Out maneuvering a panzer in an M16 and killing the panzer I suppose all depends on the gunner in the panzer.  I’ve tried to use this tactic before and have been popped like a tick when zigzagging.

Taking down an IL2 with .50’s isn’t hard, that’s true, it just takes several passes or a sustained burst at high speed.  My experience with it anyway.

Zippatuh

[2Late4U]

The IL-2 has some real problems in the MA the way it is currently handled.  It was an anti-tank plane and so has little place in most maps, and its armor (lack thereof) in the current version is pathetic.  There are numerous accounts in history of 109 pilots emptying their entire ammo load into a plane and having it still be flying.  

In AH all it takes is a short burst and the tail falls off.

I see about 1 IL-2 for every 2-3 THOUSAND other planes I see...not very effective use of HT time to model a plane noone uses.  THe issues are clear:

1) Its not durable enough.  The only flying tank it resembles is a flying gastank.  The P47 handles damage more effectively.  This seems to be due to the fact that its tail comes off the same assembly line as the P38 tail.....ya know the Scotch Tape assembly method.

2) There are rarely any targets that require an IL-2.  The only map I see large GV formations on is the uterus lake map.  Other than that, your better off in several other aircraft.

3) Most people try and fly it a few times, and give up.  It can be very effective (even with its dixie cup tail) in formations of 3-5...but its almost impossible to find anyone foolish enough to fly one

[Am0n]

I agree on the IL-2 armor issue, i found it frail the few times i flew it. That alone was enough to discourage me from flying it at all. (it has glass wings like the jug, which i also feal could use some more armor.)

Also the lack of ammo on the 6 gun discourages flight.

But i will say it is quiet manueverable for its size and weight.. plus you can fly it in f3 mode  

[BigGun]

I think he is trying to make Rude's "whine of week" list before year end.

BgMAW

[LePaul]

Originally posted by Am0n:
I agree on the IL-2 armor issue, i found it frail the few times i flew it. That alone was enough to discourage me from flying it at all. (it has glass wings like the jug, which i also feal could use some more armor.)

Also the lack of ammo on the 6 gun discourages flight.

But i will say it is quiet manueverable for its size and weight.. plus you can fly it in f3 mode  

Agree on all points.

I'm having M3s and M16s blow my IL2s out of the air at 1.5k+ and I'll be happy to post film.  I know Osties have a huge shell so I can accept that a hit from them is instant death.  But little 50 cals, well, I have a tougher time with that.  Certainly, the IL2s armor needs to be reviewed.

[AKDejaVu]

Was it on the 2nd or 3rd pass you were shot down Urchin?

[Urchin]

Yes, it usually was on the 2nd or 3rd pass that I was killed.  I was trying to attack everything except the Osties, but since they would spawn as 1 tank, 1 m3, and 4 osties- it got difficult rather fast.  I know I took some hits from the tank every time I strafed him, because I heard the "tink, tink, tink" of the 7.92 rounds hitting.  I never heard any .50 rounds hitting.  I never heard any 37mm rounds hitting, my wing/ and or tail just fell off.  Perhaps it is the case that when you are hit from a 37mm shell and you don't die, it goes 'tink' like a 7.92mm shell, but I rather doubt it.

[AKDejaVu]

From every thing I've ever read on ground attacks... a second pass was usually fatal and to be avoided at all costs.

In AH they are a common occurance.

I agree that the GVs are not accurate.  But I don't believe things are so skewed in their favor as to be unreasonable.  They are always out in the open.  They are always visible.  They are easy to kill with the right ordinance.

Hell.. my biggest gripe about GVs is the fact that AP rounds from Panzers seem to have less effect on them than 20mm does.  But that doesn't help you much.

AKDejaVu

[Dago]

 But little 50 cals,

I think this is a mistake alot of AH players make. They underestimate the impact a .50 caliber round can have.  A .50 caliber round is a pretty good size bullet, and carries alot of velocity.  We are not talking about a .22 here, we are talking about a very potent bullet.   Now, if you can accept that the .50 is a wicked bullet traveling at high speed, think quantity.  We are not firing single shot weapons, nor as a rule are we firing just one gun.

In AH, most cases .50 caliber fire is from multiple guns firing in full auto.  This cause a tremendous amount of damage to anything it hits.

One time I was able to fire a .50 caliber rifle at a large steel disc hanging on a pivot at 100 yards.  It both blew a hole right thru the thick steel, but also had the disc (about 24 inch diameter, 3/8" thick" swinging like a tissue in a strong wind.  Impressed me.

So, dont underestimate the damage of .50 caliber weapons on an aircraft.  These are potent leathal weapons that can do a tremendous amount of damage to aluminum and wooden aircraft.  Just ask all those pilots shot down by P51s and P47s.

Dago

[Urchin]

Anyway, I guess I'll post some more stuff to support my 'whine'.  

In real life, bombers didn't go after their target in onesies-twosies.  They went in mass, relying on eachothers defensive guns to ensure survival (which didn't actually work).  

In Aces High... bombers go in to bomb stuff how?  OH, thats right.  They go in onesies-twosies.  Eventually, enough people 'whined' about it, so HTC made it possible to fly the bomber from the tailgun station so the bomber could manuever away and still fire.  They also gave us the pinpoint accurate bombsight so people who didn't want to get shot down to climb to 35k and still hit their target like they were standing right next to it.

In real life, ground vehicles did not operate in onesies-twosies.  They generally operated in platoon-sized or larger groups.  Can someone with more knowledge of history tell me what these platoons were made up of?  I THINK they were made up of tanks and/or APCs (or halftracks in that time).  Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe that a platoon or company of mobile AA vehicles would attack enemy positions on their own.  But then again, I'm sure it happened once, so my 'whine' here doesn't have any validity either.  

My point is this.  In Aces High, both bombers AND ground vehicles see use in ways that they were never used in real life.  If they weren't quite capable of performing the role that HTC envisioned for them, they were 'tweaked' or 'enhanced' (gun strength, toughness, etc.).

The IL-2 is an anti-TANK airplane.  In real life a squadron of IL-2s would attack some formation of TANKS.  Yes, there would most likely be some sort of anti-air protection for the tanks.... but the TANKS made up the formation.  In Aces High, a single IL-2 (or at most 2) is attacking a formation of anti-air vehicles, with a single tank (or at most two) along for protecting the Ostwinds from enemy tanks.  

Thus, in Aces High, the IL-2 is some kind of prehistoric Wild Weasel.  It cannot fulfill the role that HTC has set up for it.  Following in the footsteps of bombers and ground vehicles, it needs to be 'tweaked'.

[Eaglecz]

time to bring some numbers about .50 cal and IL2`s materials/...

can any1 ?

[GRUNHERZ]

IL2 is a very good dogfighter, it can fight nikis easily with a little luck and the 23mm is nearly as powerful as the Mk108.


50cal is strong gun but I really think some people overestimate its actual combat power. I think many USA AC fans have the same "uber" 50cal romantic ideas as do many German AC fans have about the LW in general. LW guys who shot down more IL2s than anyone said in postwar interogations by USAAF intelligence that the USA would have tronble against IL2s because the 50cal wouldnt bother IL2 very much in combat.


Anyway I think the IL2 tail is far too waek to be practical in the MA. But the real Il2 tail was said to be a key weakpoint which lw fighters often targeted beacause it was highly stressed and sensitive to damage. So its a tossup I guess.

[Tac]

ooh ooh! can I say it first? Yes? Woot!!


PERK THE OSTIE!!        

[Sandman]

Maybe overpowered versus aircraft, but the Panzer is grossly underpowered when attacking anything on the ground larger than a AAA emplacement.

My $0.02...

[Vermillion]

Sorry to destroy so many fantasy's about "Armor" in an aircraft, but your kidding yourself.

There's not an aircraft in WWII that has thick enough armor to stop a 20mm AP or Semi-AP round, let alone a 37mm round (probably not in history, but I don't want to make such a statement without proof).

Most of the armor on aircraft is designed to stop shell fragments/splinters and rifle caliber bullets.  And even the "heavily armored" aircraft have very little of its total area thats protected with armor.

And a 37mm AAA round is huge. I don't doubt in the least that it would only take a single round to destroy most if not all single engine aircraft.