Author Topic: Serious question (Read 3054 times)

MANDOBLE · « **Reply #120 on:** June 04, 2002, 07:17:50 PM »

Ok, ok, I'm obsesed, every time I see a spit I MUST to kill it and cause that they are the most significative part of my victims...

Well, it is 99% true, as with any other plane

Urchin · « **Reply #121 on:** June 04, 2002, 08:37:06 PM »

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Originally posted by Fatty
Urchin, calling the 109F a challenging plane is a joke, and unless you fall alseep at the joystick an la7 cannot kill a 109e for the very reasons all the bnz'ers in this thread hate spits.

I don't think it is a joke.. I honestly do think the 109F4 is more challenging overall than a 109G2 or G10, or any of the 190s. I also think it is more challenging than a La-7 or a Spit IX or a N1K2. You don't? I guess I can explain why I feel it is more challenging than all of the above, and you can tell me why you think it isn't.

109F4 against 109G2 or G10-

Overall, I feel the 109F4 is much more challenging than the G2 or G10, for the following reasons.

- It is significantly slower than both
- It doesn't climb as well
- It turns better, BUT it still can't turn with a Spit IX or N1K2 (effectively nullifying the turning in my opinion)
- The G10 has far greater firepower (again, in my opinion).

109F4 against Spit or N1K2

Overall, I still feel the 109F4 is more challenging than a Spit (V or IX anyway) and N1K2, for the following reasons

- It is NOT significantly faster than either. This means that you'll have all the trouble the Spits and N1K2s have with BnZ'ers, and you'll have trouble killing a Spit or N1K2 to boot.

- It does not climb significantly better than the Spit IX or N1K2 (it outclimbs the V though).

- It turns worse than both.

- High speed handling (350+) is far worse in the 109.

- It has much less firepower.

Against the La7

Actually, the 109F is a great choice for killing stupid La-7 pilots. It will turn FAR better than what they expect, the only problem is finishing them off with the single 20mm. Still, I feel the 109F is a more challenging aircraft than the La7 for the following reasons

- It is FAR slower

- It doesn't climb as well

- It doesn't accelerate as well

- High speed handling is significantly worse.

- It has much less firepower.

That is why I feel the 109F4 is one of the more challenging planes in the game. Are there MORE challenging planes? Of course! The C202, the Spit I (or Hurri I), the 110C4, I'm sure I am forgetting some others. I guess I think that the 109E4 and F4 are 'challenging' because you give up the 'traditional' strengths of the 109 (which are speed and climb in my opinion) in exchange for more turning ability- but that turning ability still doesn't bring you on par with the Spit IX's or N1K2's.

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The La7 is no uber plane- and don't play them "I fly a 190 and I can't fight it" cards, cuz I know for a fact even a 190A8 can dupe a La7 in a scissors fight.

Swulfe, perhaps this will come out sounding more egotistical than I intended, but I feel you are dead wrong on this one. Can a well-flown 190A8 kill a poorly flown La-7? Of course. Can a well-flown A8 kill a well-flown La-7? Not in my opinion, and I'd be happy to back up my words. The La-7 literally does EVERYTHING better than any 190 (except roll, and that is a somewhat limited advantage in my opinion, because the roll rates are still fairly close)- and the 190A8 does everything worse than the other 190s. In my opinion, the 190A5 has the best odds of taking out an unwary La-7, but I wouldn't even put it at 25/75% for the 190A5. Again, that is just my opinion though.

Fatty · « **Reply #122 on:** June 04, 2002, 08:47:37 PM »

I think it is not because it is the easiest plane to get up from a vultched field, and will proceed to slaughter attackers. Even with gondolas you can be flying inverted before you get to the first rearm pad.

Top speed it lacks, acceleration it does not. I believe that's the reason you all fear the spits as well?

The 109f in a tight climbing turn will have a spitIX or niki wallowing pretty quickly, to either break off and try to run or stall out. SpitV and zeke don't have the speed to matter (I realize some are having trouble with the spitV from a dora, in which case there really isn't anything that can help you. I suggest giving up).

Urchin · « **Reply #123 on:** June 04, 2002, 08:52:11 PM »

It lacks acceleration compared to the 109G2, 109G10, Spit V and IX, N1K2 and La-7. Does it still outaccelerate a P-51 or P-47? Of course.

That is what I meant when I said it lacked acceleration, not that it was a brick.

You apparently have different criteria for judging a 'challenging plane' than I do

. That is cool though, that is what opinions are all about. But wouldn't a N1K2 or Spitfire still be a better choice for upping from a vulched field? The only thing you get by flying the 109F4 is the 'shock value' of being in a (comparitively) well-turning 109. The performance edges the Spits and N1K2s have would more than make up for that in my opinion.

Oh, I forgot this. I fail to see how a climbing turn would shake off a N1K2 or Spit IX? Both planes turn better than the 109F (thus burning less E in the 'turn' portion, and saving it for the 'climb' portion) and they climb just as good. How would this work? Can the 109F4 climb at a steeper angle?

Fatty · « **Reply #124 on:** June 04, 2002, 08:53:53 PM »

The spit and nik can't be up and killing as fast as the 109f. Nor can they get into the fight as fast vertically. That's why I fly it, it's the easiest plane for the situation.

Mind you I think no less of you for flying an easy plane like the 109f, I find myself falling back to it like a crutch from time to time too.

Urchin · « **Reply #125 on:** June 04, 2002, 08:56:52 PM »

Oh no, I use the 'traditional' crutches when I'm in need. I fly the Dora and LA7

. I fly the earlier models when I'm looking for a 'fair' fight, the later models when I'm just looking to kill as many as possible.

Fatty · « **Reply #126 on:** June 04, 2002, 08:58:58 PM »

I have no clue what the true data tables are for the 109f vs spiIX or n1k2, but from Aces High experience I'll turn with either in a heartbeat (keeping some vertical to it), and neither can hold a climbing turn with the 109f.

akak · « **Reply #127 on:** June 04, 2002, 09:00:20 PM »

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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
Seriously, cant understand most of you deffending the idea that what people fly doesnt need to be regulated.

Just because you find it boring, doesn't mean we all do. I don't care if there's 2 Spitfires or 20 flying around in one area. If that's what others want to fly, so be it. The only plane that really needs to be perked is the Me262 because that plane would seriously effect the game balance in large numbers.

Does the numbers of Spitfires, Nikis or La7s effect the game balance in the MA now? No they don't and you've yet to show one shred of proof that they do. Your "scenerios" don't count because they are just your "fantasy" and aren't based or grounded in reality or facts.

Ack-Ack

Karnak · « **Reply #128 on:** June 04, 2002, 09:03:19 PM »

MANDOBLE,

I'm not saying you only kill Spits. Obviously you kill many other things as 80% of your kills are not Spits.

But you do seem to have a slight favoritism for killing Spits.

Urchin · « **Reply #129 on:** June 04, 2002, 09:07:15 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Fatty
I have no clue what the true data tables are for the 109f vs spiIX or n1k2, but from Aces High experience I'll turn with either in a heartbeat (keeping some vertical to it), and neither can hold a climbing turn with the 109f.

Well, you are the expert in your situation. I typically avoid upping from vulched fields like the plague

. I do think it is interesting that you seem to have more success turning in a Spit/N1K2 with the 109F4 than I do. I guess I'm just out of practice

. Aces High really isn't a game of 'true data tables' (although it has to be based on one).. I think it is more a game of 'feel' (as poor a choice of words as that may be). At least that is how I think of it, your mileage may vary

.

Montezuma · « **Reply #130 on:** June 04, 2002, 11:18:33 PM »

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Originally posted by Urchin
The La-7 literally does EVERYTHING better than any 190.

How about GUNS and AMMO?

Tac · « **Reply #131 on:** June 04, 2002, 11:38:44 PM »

Dtango, add your %. by plane name as seen in the arena.

Add all spits, add all 109s and all 190's.

Then you see a different picture.

Then again, if each spit had its submodel in the icon, the spitIX would be actively avoided and its # of kills it gets may be considerably lower. Same with 109G10 and 190D9's, etc etc.

Just look at the La5 and La7.. or the 202 and 205... just what do YOU do when you fight these planes? I see 202 and I dont worry about it giving me a snapshot, so I go for aggressive knife fights.. but theres no chance in hell i'd do that vs a 205. La5, Ill try and E-fight it because I know I got a good chance to beat it doing that.. but vs an la7 thats SUICIDE.

Now imagine seeing a "spitV" icon... it would instantly put all spitv's at a disadvantage, as any decent pilot would E-fight it from the start. But if it said SpitIX.. oooh things would be mighty different.

109F4 vs G10... no fricken way to know which is which unless it passes you really damn close or you chase it for a little while. And yet if each had its icon you can bet your bellybutton the G10 wouldnt be able to rope other planes into its climb-till-he-drops manouver.. which is usually the first and only time the other player realizes he faces a G10.. and probably gets shot down because of it. So the way I see it, if 109G10 had its icon, its kill #'s would drop dramatically.

I'm not asking for separate icons, but you do have to take into account this little quirk which really does give the Spits and LW planes an important advantage when you face them.

AKDejaVu · « **Reply #132 on:** June 05, 2002, 12:06:29 AM »

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Originally posted by Tac
Add all spits, add all 109s and all 190's.

Then you see a different picture.

All Spits (Spit I, V, Seafire, IX and XIV): 19.35% of all fighter kills.

190s and 109s: 14.1% of all fighter kills

So, 19 of every 100 fighter kills for the Spits... 14 of every 100 for the 190/109s. Yeppers... big difference.

Urchin · « **Reply #133 on:** June 05, 2002, 12:14:52 AM »

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Originally posted by Montezuma

How about GUNS and AMMO?

You got me there, the La-7 does have less firepower than the 190A-8. Still has more than the A5 or D9 though.

However, the La-7 has a much easier time bringing its guns to bear, especially when compared to a 190A-8.

Toad · « **Reply #134 on:** June 05, 2002, 12:33:15 AM »

Deja are you ever going to stop ruining unsupported biases with plain facts?