Author Topic: Time to return to the Moon?  (Read 1503 times)

Offline EvilDingo

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Time to return to the Moon?
« Reply #60 on: June 06, 2002, 12:56:35 PM »
It boggles my mind that people would think that going to the moon or Mars is a bad idea.

It's possible that Mars has life -- living on it right now. Vast oceans were recently discovered on Mars lying just below the surface! There is enough water on Mars to cover the entire planet with water! Think about that. Who is to say that life on Mars isn't just below the surface? Incidentally, the Mars lander NASA lost was going to land in an excellent spot to test for water / life.

The moon is just as interesting as Mars. It too has water locked away under it's surface.

Our solar system, except for Earth, was once considered to have absolutely no chance for life. As we learn more and more about it, it appears that may not be true.

What is on Europa? Vast oceans under the ice heated by vocanos. Could life be there? It certainly could be!

Jupiter, early in our solar system's creation, was once a star. All those moons circling Jupiter were it's planets. However, Jupiter didn't have the 'stuff' to last for long, and quickly changed to a massive gas giant. While burning as a star, it could have jump started life on it's moons / planets. Life could still be there now, or at the very least, evidence of life.

Offline Steven

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« Reply #61 on: June 06, 2002, 01:01:59 PM »
I never heard that Jupiter was once a "star" for a short time.  I heard that it could've been one but it just nearly misses being of a size to allow for that to happen.  

Educate me.

Offline HFMudd

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« Reply #62 on: June 06, 2002, 01:26:13 PM »
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It's possible that Mars has life -- living on it right now. Vast oceans were recently discovered on Mars lying just below the surface! There is enough water on Mars to cover the entire planet with water! Think about that. Who is to say that life on Mars isn't just below the surface? Incidentally, the Mars lander NASA lost was going to land in an excellent spot to test for water / life.


Probably very little of it is in the form you have pictured.  Almost all it will be frozen and probably in the form of scatterd crystals.  Still, there does seem to be a lot of H20 there that can be reached.  Considering that everywhere on or in earth the Earth we look for life, we seem to find it, it seems that Mars should be able to support bacteria.  (In fact the Viking landers of 1970's would have given the same results when testing for life for certain Earthly bacterium.)

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The moon is just as interesting as Mars. It too has water locked away under it's surface.


Mostly at the poles.  4 billion years of sublimation is not you friend.  Again you point is still your point is valid in that there appears to be a good deal of water ice that could be extracted.

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Our solar system, except for Earth, was once considered to have absolutely no chance for life. As we learn more and more about it, it appears that may not be true.


100% agree.  This is also true the area around deep ocean vents, in sufer springs and in the Earths deep crust.

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What is on Europa? Vast oceans under the ice heated by vocanos. Could life be there? It certainly could be!


You might be mixing Europa and Io here.  Europa has about 12 miles of ice over what appears to oceans or at least one homongus slushy.  It is kept liquid by tidal forces from Jupiter although I don't doubt the same tidal forces heat whatever rocky core it has and produce volcanism as well.  Io has no liquid water be does appear to be the most volcanicaly active body in the solar system.

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Jupiter, early in our solar system's creation, was once a star. All those moons circling Jupiter were it's planets. However, Jupiter didn't have the 'stuff' to last for long, and quickly changed to a massive gas giant. While burning as a star, it could have jump started life on it's moons / planets. Life could still be there now, or at the very least, evidence of life.


Now this is just not true.  IIRC Jupiter is somewhere between 50 and 100 times too small for hydrogen fusion to ever have occured.  It does however radiate more energy than it recieves from the Sun and so has a greater impact on its satellites than the Sun does.

You main point is quite valid however as the moons of Jupiter, in particular Europa as mentioned above, would be a wonderful place to look.

Offline Voss

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« Reply #63 on: June 06, 2002, 01:53:09 PM »
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Originally posted by Dowding


How do you come to that conclusion? There is likely to be huge mineral wealth on mars. They discovered huge quantities of water on mars only a couple of weeks ago - which would be vital for any manned exploration (from fuel to just plain old drinking water).
 


No, it's more likely that we have more wealth here, that we have not even begun to tap into. Certainly, there will never be any fossil fuels on Mars. Terraforming Mars would take something like 10,000 years at our current technology level, though it would be a simple matter of 500 years, or so, to move enough industry there to get the process moving. Unfortunately, the concept that we have the ability to influence the environment (global warming) enough to actually change Mars quickly, is naive and egotistical.

Attempting to colonize Mars, today, is too time consuming, dangerous and costly. Further, there is no viable profit to be made from it. Pointless, as I said.

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It may not be possible now or even in our lifetimes, but it will come.

The Earth can only support so much life, and unless we utilise the oceans for life support it's going to get very crowded within a couple of centuries. Of course the richer, more developed nations could share their wealth with the poorer nations, but that really isn't an option. To keep their position as leaders of the world, they are going to have to expand.


Another bad premise, probably propagated by ignorant media types. Earth can support much more life than we have here today. The fact that we are not properly making use of the Earth is a good indication that we should not even consider screwing with Mars, yet.

Expansion? Expansion into the seas should proceed expansion into space.

The next best use of space exploration that we can involve ourselves in, is robotic mining of the asteroid belt, IMHO.

Offline EvilDingo

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« Reply #64 on: June 06, 2002, 02:16:29 PM »
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Probably very little of it is in the form you have pictured. Almost all it will be frozen and probably in the form of scatterd crystals.


Yes. I didn't mean walking-talking aliens. The importance is still there. Alien bacteria? It's impossible to know all the things we could learn from that.

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You might be mixing Europa and Io here. Europa has about 12 miles of ice over what appears to oceans or at least one homongus slushy.


This is from an article that can be found here.

"Like other solar system bodies, Europa is about 4.5 billion years old, but recent analysis of the crater density on its icy surface reveals that Europa is very geologically active—the surface is only about 50 million years old. The pull and tug of Jupiter’s gravity and magnetic fields keep Europa’s subsurface ocean liquid, and drive the surface recycling system."

It is largely believed that there is a liquid ocean 5 miles under the ice sheet.

"Data collected earlier this year by the Galileo spacecraft has now generated what some scientists are calling virtually undeniable evidence that Jupiter’s moon Europa has a significant water ocean churning beneath its icy surface.

The data, which was collected by Galileo’s magnetic-field-detecting instruments when the spacecraft flew close to the icy moon, showed that there is an electrically charged layer of some substance stirring possibly as close as 4.7 miles (7.5 kilometers) below the moon’s ice crust. Planetary scientists say the most likely explanation for the data is a liquid-water ocean similar to oceans found on Earth"

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Now this is just not true. IIRC Jupiter is somewhere between 50 and 100 times too small for hydrogen fusion to ever have occured. It does however radiate more energy than it recieves from the Sun and so has a greater impact on its satellites than the Sun does.


I went back and did some reading on this subject. Apparently, Jupiter is large enough, and is even made up of largely the same elements our sun is, but isn't massive enough to be catagorized as a star.

However, I *did* read this, so I'm not pulling this out my ass:

"Jupiter was once a miniature sun according to our current concepts of solar system formation," he said. "It only lasted a short time - a few million years at most -but this was long enough, Hoagland estimates, "for molecules that are suspected life-process precursors to be created as they have been in thousands of earthly laboratory simulations. As Jupiter's early star-like period ended, the ocean's surface soon froze, locking the primordial soup' into an underground sea."

But I'm glad we're on the same page. Life could very well be living on Mars (and Europa) as I write this. It may not be intelligent or complex, (then again, maybe it could -- who knows whats there until we go look), but it's possible and worthy of exploration. :)

Offline HFMudd

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« Reply #65 on: June 06, 2002, 04:26:37 PM »
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However, I *did* read this, so I'm not pulling this out my ass:


Gosh, I hope I didn't give the impression that I thought you did.  If I came across that way, please accept my apology.

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Jupiter was once a miniature sun according to our current concepts of solar system formation," he said. "It only lasted a short time - a few million years at most -but this was long enough, Hoagland estimates, "for molecules that are suspected life-process precursors to be created as they have been in thousands of earthly laboratory simulations. As Jupiter's early star-like period ended, the ocean's surface soon froze, locking the primordial soup' into an underground sea."


Ah, I see where we are coming from now.  What the author (Hoagland) means is that Jupiter and its satellite condensed out of the dust of the early solar system in the same fashion that the Sun and its planets did.  I don't think he meant to imply that hydrogen fusion occurred.

Or maybe he did if we consider the source.  Hoagland, I assume, is the same one who insisted the "Face on Mars" was artificial and that NASA was covering up the evidence.  In that case, Hoagland is taking some liberties with the facts to support his book selling premiss of "amino acids occur a lot -> life occurs a lot -> intelligent life occurs a lot -> aliens build artifacts in our solar system some odd reason."
« Last Edit: June 06, 2002, 04:33:10 PM by HFMudd »

Offline Voss

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« Reply #66 on: June 06, 2002, 04:59:12 PM »
Jupiter was never a star. It lacks the mass to ever be a star.

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #67 on: June 06, 2002, 05:14:01 PM »
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Originally posted by Voss
Jupiter was never a star. It lacks the mass to ever be a star.


Unlike Roseanne Bar.

Da-dun-da!!!

Offline CyranoAH

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« Reply #68 on: June 06, 2002, 05:29:20 PM »
Well, everything was once a star or part of it...

Daniel

PS: Okok a protostar, but the point is that it once burned

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #69 on: June 06, 2002, 06:19:17 PM »
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No, it's more likely that we have more wealth here, that we have not even begun to tap into.


Not necessarily true, since Mars hasn't had the mineral exploration Earth has enjoyed. The ease at which any minerals could be extracted and utilised by any potential colony hasn't really been determined.

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Certainly, there will never be any fossil fuels on Mars.


That would become irrelevant if synthetic organic chemistry was developed to such a level where replication of vital polymers could be performed efficiently and economically. Perhaps even nuclear synthesis could become viable. Like I said, it's just a matter of time; although existing technologies might not be up to the task, a few centuries or even decades down the line the situation will be very different.

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Unfortunately, the concept that we have the ability to influence the environment (global warming) enough to actually change Mars quickly, is naive and egotistical.


Not really. Considering experts in this field still dispute this very point, I believe it's pointless to pass judgement on the theory.

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Attempting to colonize Mars, today, is too time consuming, dangerous and costly. Further, there is no viable profit to be made from it. Pointless, as I said.


True for today. But there's always tomorrow.

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Another bad premise, probably propagated by ignorant media types. Earth can support much more life than we have here today. The fact that we are not properly making use of the Earth is a good indication that we should not even consider screwing with Mars, yet.


Not propagated by the media in my case - learned from the part of my degree which concerned environmental physics. Overpopulation is a multi-faceted problem that ties with many other environmental issues.

Currently, there is no desire to make better use of the Earth, mainly because of the compromises that would have to be made to our lifestyles to make that the case. But that's a discussion apart.

I can't see the sea ever being used to any large degree in the near future - I would imagine living down there for extended periods of time will require extensive R&D, the cost of which would be enormous. Right now, space captures the imagination much more than the oceans and so will always win in the battle for funding. But I'm sure the parallels between ocean floor and ET colonisation would allow for many cross-over technologies to be developed.
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Offline HFMudd

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« Reply #70 on: June 06, 2002, 06:42:25 PM »
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PS: Okok a protostar, but the point is that it once burned


If by "burned" you mean nuclear fusion occured, then no it did not.  The mass of Jupiter is at least 50 times to small for that.

But it does radiate more energy than it receives from the sun.  Not enough to heat its moons in any "life giving" way, but some.  Again, Europa's apparent liquid ocean is heated by the imense tidal forces that the Jovian system experiences and not by radient energy from the Jupiter.

Offline CyranoAH

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« Reply #71 on: June 06, 2002, 08:01:24 PM »
What I mean is that going waaaaaay back in time, Jupiter was nothing more than a big soup of highly energetic particles, and fusion didn't even exist yet :D

Daniel

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #72 on: June 06, 2002, 08:13:27 PM »
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Originally posted by CyranoAH
What I mean is that going waaaaaay back in time, Jupiter was nothing more than a big soup of highly energetic particles, and fusion didn't even exist yet :D


Of course not, Kurt Tank hadn't invented it yet.

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #73 on: June 06, 2002, 08:33:26 PM »
Kurt Tank was gay.

his progeny will invent gay asteroid mining.
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