Author Topic: I really wish Pyro would chime in soon  (Read 1657 times)

Offline lord dolf vader

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I really wish Pyro would chime in soon
« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2002, 03:40:35 PM »
"Tried the 190A-8 in il2 ? "

yea i have and it amazes me how different it and all the other aircraft are in il-2 compaired to ah.


best comparison i can give is il2 is to ah as wb was to aw. as far as flight model.


and german planes dont suck.

Offline dtango

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« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2002, 05:49:19 PM »
I did some quick aerodynamic calculations based on some of the above data.  Here's what I found:

Assuming 407mph is the top end A-5 speed at 21K ft:

(1) Quick estimation of drag=thrust assuming .80 prop efficiency and 1800 engine BHP:
If top end speed @ SL= 335mph, drag = 1611 lbs
If top end speed @ SL= 351mph, drag = 1538 lbs
If top end speed @ 21k= 407mph, drag = 1326 lbs

(2) Using the above drag estimations, approximations for CD0 are:
CD0= .026 at 335mph SL
CD0= .023 at 351mph SL
CD0= .027 at 407mph 21k ft

(3) Assuming CD0=.023 is the correct form drag coefficient, I did a calculation of what the expected max level airspeed should be at 21k ft.  Assuming 1326 lbs of drag at 21K ft (from original assumption that 407mph as the topend speed at 21k and the said engine data) and using CD0=.023, the max level speed would be a whopping 451 mph.

CONCLUSIONS:
The first observation is that a 351mph max level speed at sea level is suspect since it is out of line with the CD0 of .027 assuming and that a max level speed at sea level of 335mph is much closer in line aerodynamically.  CD0 should remain fairly constant.  Clearly the CD0 for 335mph SL ~ CD0 at 407mph 21k where as CD0 at 351mph SL is lower than expected given the thrust and drag assumptions.  

The 2nd observation is that if CD0=.023 then the max speed at 21k feet should be much higher than 407mph and closer to 451mph given the thrust and drag assumptions.

Based on some of the math I would have to say the 351mph SL max level speed doesn't make aerodynamic sense if the max level speed at 21K is 407mph.

Please feel free to check my math.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
Tango / Tango412 412th FS Braunco Mustangs
"At times it seems like people think they can chuck bunch of anecdotes into some converter which comes up with the flight model." (Wmaker)

Offline RRAM

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« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2002, 07:07:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by dtango
The 2nd observation is that if CD0=.023 then the max speed at 21k feet should be much higher than 407mph and closer to 451mph given the thrust and drag assumptions.





Well, if the engine was delivering same power at SL than at 21.5k feet I won't say a word, Dtango... but you know, BMW801D-2 was powerful as hell at SL, but it lost most of its power at medium to high altitudes. I don't see you taking this into account in your calculations.


BTW, and just as another example,even more dramatic, to show you're wrong:

La7 makes 380mph@SL. It tops out 405mph@20k


Power outputs change drastically with altitudes. Sorry but your math may be correct but is not appliable as long as you don't take engine power output variations with altitude in account.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2002, 07:10:06 PM by RRAM »

Offline senna

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« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2002, 07:53:34 PM »
Thats true. I believe that takeoff power was at 1700HP and at 18,700 feet 1440HP.

Offline RRAM

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« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2002, 08:08:51 PM »
nope ,senna, according to a performance chart I have, is more like 1775hp@SL and 1425hp@20000 feet

[edited, link was incorrectly written]



« Last Edit: June 17, 2002, 08:12:46 PM by RRAM »

Offline senna

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Didnt see that chart
« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2002, 08:29:31 PM »
RRAM, I was listing the numbers I found in one of my books. The figures are pretty similar taking into account the slide. I dont think the book was quoting SL hp, more so around 3 and 4k ground level. Also if you take 18,700ft into mind, it shows about 1440 hp.

Offline RRAM

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Re: Didnt see that chart
« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2002, 08:32:19 PM »
Yup, senna I was pointing at the SL power being higher than 1700hp rather than to the 18k one wich I already thought was correct :).
« Last Edit: June 17, 2002, 08:34:53 PM by RRAM »

Offline dtango

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« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2002, 09:50:32 PM »
RRAM:

Thanks for the data on the alt variation on BHP.  Here's some recalcs based on the Engine BHP figures you provided.  Again bear in mind that these are approximations.

(1) Drag = Thrust approximations
@ SL with BHP 1775, .8 Prop Eff..
If max level speed = 335 mph, D= 1590 lbs
If max level speed = 351 mph, D= 1517 lbs

@21K with BHP 1425, .8 prop eff...
if max level speed = 407 mph, D= 1050 lbs

(2) Parasite Drag Coefficient Approximations
Using the above estimates:
SL max level speed 335 mph, CD0=.026
SL max level speed 351 mph, CD0=.022
21k max level speed 407 mph, CD0=.021
[EDIT: just to be clear, Di was factored in and I applied the CD = CDi + CD0 equation to derive CD0]

(3) Expected Max Speed at 21k using CD0=.022
Assuming 1050 lbs drag, max level speed at 21k = 406mph

(4) Expected Max Speed at 21k using CD0=.026
Assuming 1050 lbs drag, max level speed at 21k = 379mph

CONCLUSION:
Very interesting indeed.  First it would appear with the modified BHP #'s that CD0~.021, .022 is more accurate.  2nd with a CD0=.022, the resulting max level speed at 21k gets you the appropriate max level speed of 406 mph.

You guys asking for an increase of the A-5's speed to 351 mph at sea level may be on to something here.  The approximations based on the engine data assumptions, resulting drag, and max level speed at 21k estimates appear to be in line with what you are indicating.

Of course I'm missing details such as thrust calculations aren't as straightforward as the T = BHP*PE * 550 / V that I was using nor are PE figures constant.  However if the gets us with 85% of an accurate approximation then something may be amiss.

Pyro, HT- any comment?

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
« Last Edit: June 17, 2002, 10:00:06 PM by dtango »
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"At times it seems like people think they can chuck bunch of anecdotes into some converter which comes up with the flight model." (Wmaker)

Offline Hristo

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« Reply #38 on: June 17, 2002, 10:40:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by dtango

Pyro, HT- any comment?

 


Frustrating, eh ?


WTG on the calcs tho !

Offline dtango

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« Reply #39 on: June 17, 2002, 11:46:35 PM »
Me frustrated at Pyro or HT?  Nah.  I just tried to do a sanity check.  It's one thing to have numbers.  As EddieK mentioned earlier you have to take the next step to see if the numbers line up with the physics.

My sanity check of the physics could be way off.  HTC does their homework pretty rigorously and I'm wondering more if I am missing something here.  I'll leave it to others who are knowledgeable to take a stab at it.  As far as I can tell though using the engine BHP figures that RRAM provided there might be reason to make a change in the SL speed of the A-5.  This assumes that RRAM's data is very close to what HTC is using for their flight models.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
« Last Edit: June 18, 2002, 12:05:40 AM by dtango »
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"At times it seems like people think they can chuck bunch of anecdotes into some converter which comes up with the flight model." (Wmaker)

Offline Furious

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« Reply #40 on: June 18, 2002, 12:51:20 AM »
dtango,

A very nice series of posts.  No bias, redid your calcs, and friendly.

Refreshing.




F.

Offline Hristo

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« Reply #41 on: June 18, 2002, 01:54:12 AM »
Where's the damn antagonism, I miss it ;)

Offline RRAM

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« Reply #42 on: June 18, 2002, 04:37:42 AM »
Excellent calculations, Dtango. Thanks for doing them again taking the lower engine output at 21K into account.   :)


Well...once again: Proof's here (charts and film)...I now just hope they now live up to their promise (to look into the issue when proof is presented) and change the Fw190A5's speed curve in Aces High to the one in the speed chart. :)
« Last Edit: June 18, 2002, 04:48:26 AM by RRAM »

Offline Hristo

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« Reply #43 on: June 18, 2002, 05:08:00 AM »
Yup, it would be an exciting feature in AH. To me it would overshadow any Pac plane addition ;).

Can't wait...

Offline Sachs

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« Reply #44 on: June 18, 2002, 05:23:52 PM »
I would rather see the 190A5 speed fixed then new planes added as well.  SO i second that motion.