Author Topic: Wtg Korea!!! (Read 707 times)

RRAM · « **Reply #30 on:** June 18, 2002, 12:53:59 PM »

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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Determination can overcome skill. Ego theory re-instated.

Not if the skilled side shows as much determination.

If we lose because the other team shows more will to win than us, if they run more than us, then it will be a shame, because we'll have wasted our potential for not running and believing in our own victory. That was the case against Eire last Sunday. During the last 35 minutes of the 2nd half, eire showed to believe in their own victory, and ran much more than us. They showed an anymic strenght Spain didn't.

We passed on penalties, underservedly. We were lucky. Had we failed to pass, I'd have given that elimination as full of shame for spain.

World Champions are worthy only if they prove to be. Part of that proof is to put as much cojones on the field as anyone else. If we play stronger than anyone, with our quality, we should fear only better teams. Not vastly inferior ones.

Ego theory defeated again

funkedup · « **Reply #31 on:** June 18, 2002, 12:54:43 PM »

CORRRIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII IIIINTHIAN LEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEATHER!!!

stegor · « **Reply #32 on:** June 18, 2002, 12:56:59 PM »

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Are you claiming there's a worldwide conspiracy against Italy to prevent you from winning in any international sports competition? Hey, I can believe it. After all the Germans and Japanese can't be happy with your dismal showing in WW2, America is pissed at you over the Mafia, and the French hate you because the French hate everyone. That coupled with the fact that Italy has never won a world championship in anything makes your conspiracy theroy believable. I mean, what are the odds of a country the size of Italy sucking so bad at everything?

Despite the mistake,

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Italy has never won a world championship in anything

showing you are not a sportsman ,in the literal sense fo the word;) , cannot find the sense of what you have write, maybe its a joke?

Ohh...just doesnt matter anyway

Ripsnort · « **Reply #33 on:** June 18, 2002, 01:20:26 PM »

Nib, I'm pretty sure he meant it as a joke.

RRAM, if your teams determination and their skillz can overcome Korea's determination, then they deserve it...otherwise, they are nothing but an inferior team to Korea.

(I ain't backing down on this one, I study sports psychology for one semester!

)

RRAM · « **Reply #34 on:** June 18, 2002, 01:26:38 PM »

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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Nib, its a joke.

RRAM, if your teams determination and their skillz can overcome Korea's determination, then they deserve it...otherwise, they are nothing but an inferior team to Korea. (I ain't backing down on this one, I study sports psychology for one semester! )

Rip, once again, I am talking about a comparative of each team capabilities and skills as football teams.

You won't expect Chicago Bulls to win against LA Lakers. Sure, it can happen, but ,if it happens it will be because Bulls did a great match.....AND..... BECAUSE LA lakers blewed it bigtime.

A team is better or worse than other, you can tell it by looking at its quality as a team and at the quality of its individuals by separate.

then ON THE FIELD, one team can play better or worse and be better or worse for that match. But the quality difference is SO enormous in this case, that if that happens, it will be a shame for Spain.

Thats what I mean.

Fatty · « **Reply #35 on:** June 18, 2002, 01:31:11 PM »

With South Korea's level of dedication it's a wonder they ever lose.

Have the world cup games started yet?

Ripsnort · « **Reply #36 on:** June 18, 2002, 01:42:28 PM »

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Originally posted by RRAM

Rip, once again, I am talking about a comparative of each team capabilities and skills as football teams.

So you are saying that a team that wins because they're more determined isn't the more skilled team because the other team was "physically" more talented? LOL! Okay! Guess you never played sports before.

Sports are 50% psych, and 50% physical skill, son.

RRAM · « **Reply #37 on:** June 18, 2002, 01:58:32 PM »

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Originally posted by Ripsnort

So you are saying that a team that wins because they're more determined isn't the more skilled team because the other team was "physically" more talented? LOL! Okay! Guess you never played sports before.

Played 9 years soccer, left it because studies, could've had gone on, tho not in a very important team, I'm afraid

.

and no, that is not what I say. I say that a technically inferior team CAN WIN a technically superior one using more will to win, putting more cojones and effort on the field and giving ALL they have to do it.

I just say that,if the more technically gifted team, puts a similar phisical effort, will to win, and mentalization, they will win 9 out of 10 times.

And what I say NOW is that when a team is SO vastly superior in teh technical department as Spain is vs Korea, if it doens't show that will and doesnt put enough effort on the field to win, they should BE ashamed. Because effort, will to win and "cojones" are something you're supposed to put on the field when you are a professional ...

And MUCH MORE when you wear the colors of your nation and you are defending the proudness of your people and country.

If spain is won because Korea puts more cojones on the field , then those players are NOT worth wearing the national shirt of Spain.

Is more clear that way?

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Sports are 50% psych, and 50% physical skill, son.

75% psych, IMO...

Just happens that EVERYONE can put effort, run a lot, and put will to win on the field...but very FEW people are as technically gifted as the spanish players in our team this World Cup.

If you are gifted and you don't put enough effort to exploit it, then YOU'RE A WASTE. Another reason to be ashamed if those players don't win this match.

Wlfgng · « **Reply #38 on:** June 18, 2002, 05:07:56 PM »

all sports suffer from bad calls from time to time.
The way to keep the refs from making/breaking the game is to not get into a situation that calls for them to interfere. (IMO)

Also, any given team... on any given team.. can beat any other team. We all have bad days .. so do teams. That's why sports are so dynamic. It's never a 'for-sure' thing when two teams meet.. not matter what the talent level.

Besides. Italy sat back on the one goal.. they didn't look hungry enough to me. ... despite all the talent they have.

Naso · « **Reply #39 on:** June 19, 2002, 02:20:04 AM »

As I already said, Italy made a pityful match against Korea, and the team have his responsability.

The 2 goals of Korea were 2 nice goal (the second was a better one), they made a good match.

But, RAM, look better the ralenty, Totti was hit, and did'nt deserve the yellow card.

I never said the Korean's penalty was not true, it was, was a perfect penalty, no discussion.

But the offside of the second goal was inesistant, and is the goal number 4 (or 5?) that a referee stole to us in this championship.

Remember how many times the referee called on Italy supposed fault, and ignored the Korea ones (remember the kick in the head of Maldini? and the punch to Di Livio?)?

Finally, the referee was from ecuador, a team that we just eliminated from the cup.

Not a conspiracy, but for sure a bad choise of the professional refrees, and maybe a general unfriendly for the team (or maybe the nation, as this board show sometime

).

As for professionality, Turkey asked for Collina to be the refree, because they know is one of the best, and I think every squad have to pray to have a Collina (or equivalent) to be the refree, and not the "once in the life, rookie, and stupid" type we had in our matches.

Kweassa · « **Reply #40 on:** June 19, 2002, 02:27:51 AM »

How does one confirm who is better in technique by how much?

Do they have a 'stats screen' like a computer game where the player attributes are marked like "tackle skills: 80 / shooting: 70 / dribble: 90 ... " ??

.....

It's kind of strange to think that HAVING BEEN one of the best teams of all time automatically justifies the assumption that they WILL BE always a better team.

France dropped out, Portugal was an upset, Sweden went back, Italy got hurt, Argentina collapsed. I find it hard to believe the reason behind these 'upsets' were because 115 players of these five super powers were all "undetermined", "weak mineded" or due to "unfair advantages".

Maybe a simpler answer to 'why' these upsets happened would be the guys they played against were actually better, or at least equal.

After all, there isn't any exclusive genetic code which runs in only certain countries so they play football better. Four years is not a long time, no doubt, but maybe it was enough for the Korean team to train themselves upto a level where they might actually be a formiddable opponent against the European teams. Korea faced France and England in trial runs prior to the World cup, played against Portugal in the knock-out phase, and also fought Italy in the main tournament. They lost 3-2 against France, tied 1-1 against England, won 1-0 against Portugal and won 2-1 against Italy. That's four formiddable teams they faced which ranks out within top 15 countries in the FIFA.

Who knows?

Maybe Korea is actually better than Portugal and Italy? At least in some technical areas?

ps) 'determination' is part of player skill. The mind and the body are not seperate beings. You can't be just good in skill and bad in mind. If your mind is screwed up, your body will follow. If some country plays with a crappy mind, no matter how much skill they are CAPABLE of, their current level of skill would suck. Human factors are not like simulation games with pre-set variables that never change, you know.

In the end, 'skill levels' do not follow objective rankings. Objective rankings and evaluations are simply a little tool which is there to help compare, evaluate, and analyze. Numbers do not make realities.

RRAM · « **Reply #41 on:** June 19, 2002, 03:37:35 AM »

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Originally posted by Naso

But, RAM, look better the ralenty, Totti was hit, and did'nt deserve the yellow card.

Naso, Totti was diving WAY before the Korean player even touched him. It was for me a clear dive into the penalty area in the extra time of a World Cup Eight finals.

It was not penalty, and it was a dive (there's nothing making him fall in the first stance, nothing touches him until he's already diving) so it was yellow card.

BTW I simply love how Totti plays. Is one of my favorite players. BUt yesterday he dived. That's a fact ,at least for me.

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But the offside of the second goal was inesistant, and is the goal number 4 (or 5?) that a referee stole to us in this championship.

Naso...the other day in the Spain - Ireland match, we got very questionable offsides ourselfs. At least two were very very clear chances for Spain, and one of Morientes was even more clear than Tommasi's.

The other day we got 2 penalties in our box. Last one was clear as a sunny day, but first one WAS NOT Penalty. Was far from it.

When match ended, we were talking about how bad spain had played last 35 minutes. About the errors made by Camacho. About how we almost lost a match we should have won. About the luck we have in having Casillas. About Spain HAVING to change attitude if we want to win a world cup. About how sad would've had to return home after having lost a match we had already won.

Very little of the talk was directed at Frisk, the swedish referee. VERY little. And it had been ESSENTIAL in the match. BASSIC for the IRish recovering their confidence in themselfs. THe guy did an HORRIBLE work even while he almost got us killed.

Why?. Because we SHOULD be able to win EVEN with those errors, and Eire is much a better team than Korea. A team which scores 3 goals doesn't care about what the referee says or does. If Italy had stayed with the ball after scoring the first goal, and had showed will to WIN by more than one goal, then now you would be in semifinals.

Yep, you can say you got unlucky, and I will agree with it. Vieri missed 2m away from goal line. Gattusso Had a very very clear chance too (heh, but HE IS GATTUSO...had he been Del Piero you think he'd have missed?).

Blame your players for their innacuracy. Blame your coach for his incompetence. Blame Panucci for his error. Blame Gattusso for not scoring. Blame bad luck, maybe.

But sorry, blaming the referee on what yesterday happened is to show a very low autocritic level. Frankly said, you scored one goal and got happy with it and never really wanted to score a second...and you payed for it. Italy has been living out of that attitude for ages...sooner or later something like this was going to happen.

In football ambition usually equals to victory. you showed none yesterday. THats why you were left out.

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Originally posted by Kewassa:
How does one confirm who is better in technique by how much?

Well, lets say I'm not sure (which is not the case)...tell me , how do you know that LA Lakers is better than, say, Denver?.

Apply that same mechanic to football.

That is how you confirm who's better in technique, and by how much.

Gremlin · « **Reply #42 on:** June 20, 2002, 08:04:46 AM »

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Originally posted by RRAM
That was NOT a penalty, and IMO its yellow card.
I also think the 1st penalty the other day in Eire-Spain match (the one Casillas stopped) wasn't penalty either.

I agree RAM, Duff trailed his leg, however the defender should have seen it coming, Duff was never gonna score from there. Totti dived too, and was rightly Yellow carded.

Somewhere in this thread you also mention some "questionable" offside decisions in the spain/ireland game. There I disagree with you, look at them again, every one was spot on, actually the officials in the spain ireland game were the best i've seen all tournament, except for irelands first penalty. At the time of course I wasn't complaining, but you cant really blame the ref, it had to have looked pretty clear cut from his position.

IMHO Italy felt they had the right to win, as in some respects did Spain. That was Italy's undoing and very nearly Spains. Just look at irelands world cup progress to see how the 1-0 lead can backfire.

Game1: Cameroon 1 - Ireland 0 cameroon defend let Ireland play, result 1-1 and cameroon can consider themselves lucky.
Game2: Germany 1 - Ireland 0 again Germany sat back under the illusion that they could stop us scoring, wrong again.
Game 3: Ireland 3 - Saudi Arabia 0, Easy win for Ireland, however if we sat on 1-nil I would not be surprised to have given away the draw and a place in the last 16.

Second Round: Spain 1-Ireland 0. The rest is history. Italy did exactly the same, and korea did to them exactly what ireland should have (and deserved to) done to spain.

This world cup is littered with examples that show sitting on 1-0 doesnt work against teams with nothing else to lose.

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Originally posted by RRAM
Anything else will be a POOR excuse after the EXTREMELY POOR show we gave against Eire (a vastly inferior team player by player).

There again I disagree RAM. Yes, on paper Spains players may outvalue the Irish. But football is not played opn paper. On Sunday Irelands players had more desire, more willingness, they were first to most things. By the end of the game Spain were very much on the back foot and not playing like a team with superior players. International football is very different to club football in that some great international players are not necessarily the best club players, and vice versa. We qualified out of a group that included Portugal and Holland, holland aren't at this world cup because they under-rated Ireland. The european championship is coming up and again Ireland will be considered a 'long outside' bet. Thats why I am smiling because again many will get a rude awakening. And I am looking forward to it.

Good luck to Spain, USA, Korea, and England.

IMHO this is going to be Englands year.

~~Gremlin.~~

glock22 · « **Reply #43 on:** June 20, 2002, 01:42:21 PM »

>>>>>>ALSO SPRACH BLATTER<<<<<<<<<

FIFA president Sepp Blatter has launched a strong condemnation of refereeing at the World Cup, saying Italy had been the main victims on the way to their shock quarter-final elimination

The head of soccer's ruling body also told Italian sports daily La Gazzetta dello Sport that he would demand changes in the way referees were selected in future, with the emphasis on ability rather than nationality

'The (referees) have been quite good, but the (linesmen) have been a disaster, especially when it comes to offside...they haven't even realised that it is better to award an offside goal than to disallow a good goal.'

The team had five goals controversially disallowed during their four matches and also had striker Francesco Totti sent off in the South Korea game for allegedly diving in the penalty area - a decision that Blatter condemned.

'Sadly, and I have suffered greatly because of it, there have been exceptional circumstances and coincidences that saw many errors consecutively made against the same team, Italy,' he said.

'Totti's sending off against Korea was neither a penalty nor a dive. A referee with a feeling (for the game) would not have shown him the card, bearing in mind the same player had already been booked.'

AND TO BE HONEST:

But while accepting that Italy had been unlucky to be knocked out, he added: 'Italy's elimination is not only down to referees and linesmen who made human not premeditated errors...Italy made mistakes both in defence and in attack.

FAIR ENOUGH