true FW190 rollrate

[AKSWulfe]

Where dd the 18 degrees of aileron deflection come from? Yes, I see it written on the chart... but that's photoshopped on there, so where did it really come from?
-SW

[funkedup]

Greese:  I think the chart is from NACA and it's available to the public.  I'm sure Niklas will respond with the report number if people are interested in getting a copy.  I don't think Niklas was asking for any changes, but just pointing out some information that might be useful to this sim.  The rudder trim curve has been ignored by most of the people posting here but I'm pretty sure it's of interest to flight modelers.

[Sikboy]

Originally posted by AKSWulfe
Where dd the 18 degrees of aileron deflection come from? Yes, I see it written on the chart... but that's photoshopped on there, so where did it really come from?
-SW

And of course how much stick force is required to get those 18 degrees at 400mph... that's a lot of wind to be pushin up on.

Anyhow, the reason many of us have stopped questioning your data or more importantly the conclusions you draw from it, is repetitive whine syndrome. We grow weary of saying the same thing every week. Its much more fun to just watch you guys foam at the mouth when you think your onto something.

Anyhow, I can't wait for 1.10 to come out.

-Sikboy

[MANDOBLE]

Originally posted by AKSWulfe
Where dd the 18 degrees of aileron deflection come from? Yes, I see it written on the chart... but that's photoshopped on there, so where did it really come from?
-SW

Easy, 18 alieron deflection degress X 10 degrees per sec per deflection degree = 180 degrees per second at 275 mph. That is assuming you are being able to obtain 18 aileron deflection degrees, just an example. With 5 degrees of deflection you would have 50 degree per sec roll rate at 250 mph. with 30 degrees you would have 300 degree per sec and so on.

[RRAM]

Yah, funked, I was expecting you to chime in here, and that was exactly why I showed so much enthusiasm. I wanted you to come in here so I could tell you something...and seems the bait worked only so much right,...

but that will be later first to the point in discussion.

Originally posted by funkedup
Greese:  I think the chart is from NACA and it's available to the public.  I'm sure Niklas will respond with the report number if people are interested in getting a copy.  I don't think Niklas was asking for any changes, but just pointing out some information that might be useful to this sim.  The rudder trim curve has been ignored by most of the people posting here but I'm pretty sure it's of interest to flight modelers.

ok, first of all, funked, I give for granted that you have the NACA roll rate chart of the Fw190A suspected to have heavy controls.


that chart says at 400IAS, 190A rolled at 80d/s.

with the chart above posted, 80d/s means that, at 11d/s per degree of deflection, the 190 would be deflecting just 7 degrees of elevator...in a plane reported to have heavy controls.

Ok, I dont care about 198º/s.    But   80º/s seems not to be accurate and fitting to a normal 190, either, according to the reports.

So, whe're stuck in a rollrate wich seems innacurate because we don't have a test of a proper functioning aircraft?

You're happy with that situation?

I'm not.



Now, to my first intention....

funked, you seem to be all-willing to enter all the 190 discussions you can chime in to throw arguments over the ground...but never to give a kudos to a well documented thing which probably means the FM needs a look.


there is another thread going on, related with 190A5 speeds. How come it's been active for one week now without you posting anything  there (I guess you didn't find anything wrong in my arguments?), but as soon as you saw this one you had to come in and start throwing arguments down?.


Just wondering .

[AKSWulfe]

Yes, I know that Mandoble... but where did the 18 degrees of aileron deflection come from? It's not on the graph anywhere, I just want to know how they arrived at that.

On the graph all I can see is the Steady Rate of Roll per (degree?) aileron and the speeds at which this occurs.

Now on the left hand side of the chart, those numbers aren't anywhere near 18 where the bottom line is charted.

So I assume that it's 18*the number on the left hand side= 180degrees per second..

So where did this 18 degrees of deflection come from?
-SW

[funkedup]

RAM A-5 speed is ancient history.  We talked about it a long time ago and we argued but I agreed with you in the end.  Nothing more for me to say on that one.

BTW What thread is that?  I see no topics about A-5 in the list.

[-ammo-]

Originally posted by MANDOBLE
YOU ARE RIGHT!!! If the chart is correct, this is even more scandalous now

Using a term like scandalous does nothing for the credibility of the argument. It will only make the designer of this sim a little angry.  Do you agree with that mandoble?

[RRAM]

Originally posted by funkedup
RAM A-5 speed is ancient history.  We talked about it a long time ago and we argued but I agreed with you in the end.  Nothing more for me to say on that one.

yah but you know...some feedback is needed now and then if we want HTC to take a look at certain things we want to show may not be accurately modelled . (edit: URL=http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=55938]this thread[/URL])


BTW I insist on the rollrate issue too. Do you think that the 190's roll at high speeds is accurate as currently modelled?



Edit for a PS: Ammo, this has been said for the 1000nd time...scandalous may sound as hyperbole in this forums, in spain we seem to be that....er...hyperbolic .

I mean I'm sure Mandoble wanted simply to say taht the difference was very big. What he said is perfect given how do we use to express ourselves.

Many many times you think we do overclaim or exagerate on purpose to put down HTC. I insist; that is NOT true.

Try to understand, people...we're different people with different customes. Try to be a bit more openmindend and less paranoid relating HTC. If we would not like them,tell me then why are we here?

[MANDOBLE]

Originally posted by AKSWulfe
So where did this 18 degrees of deflection come from?
-SW

It is just an example for 250 mph. What we dont know is how many deflection degrees can you achieve in a normal 190 at 250mph applyin 50 lb of force to the stick. If you can get 18 or more, then you will have 180 degrees per secs or more.

What was the defection limit of 190A/D ailerons?

[funkedup]

RAM:  I think it's accurate in that pilots say it rolled great and it rolls great in the game.  The only good data I've seen is the famous NACA chart and the game performance matches that pretty well, but not perfectly.  Considering that HTC may have some data we don't know about, I think the in-game roll performance for the 190 is "close enough".

[RRAM]

aye ,funked, but what I've read about that report (what niklas said is not new news for me) is that the Fw190A tested by NACA had unusual heavy controls.

so, the chart we have from NACA icould be under suspect because that information, wich is quoted from the test pilots themselves.

I do believe it,too, because, like niklas said, I think that to achieve full aileron deflection at 250mph making a wooping 25kg of pressure in a stick is NOT exactly to report the plane "having light controls"...

so in the end we may have a bad rolling 190 anyway...and that is one of my points here

[funkedup]

Why are we talking about people's posting habits and language usage?  We should be talking about airplanes.

[RRAM]

Originally posted by funkedup
Why are we talking about people's posting habits and language usage?  We should be talking about airplanes.

Because some people's language usage may mislead people on what do he wants to say

Back to aircraft...

[RRAM]

Originally posted by AKSWulfe


So where did this 18 degrees of deflection come from?
-SW

seawulfe, I'm sure someone can tell you about real plane data.

I'm going to give you some empirical data.

look at the chart in this thread.


According to NACA chart (wich I don't think is accurate at high speeds, but lets use it for now), at 250mph, the Fw190A rolled 160 degrees/second.

according to the chart posted here, at 250mph each degree of deflection in the ailerons of the Fw190A caused 9 degrees/second of rollrate


do some easy math

160/9 = 17.7777

In other words, the Fw190A could AT LEAST, according to those charts, deflect its ailerons 17.7777 degrees. Prolly more, but at 250IAS, and with 50lbs on the stick, the plane deflected 17.7 degrees.