Author Topic: Though thos of you that like to know your stats would find this interesting (Read 236 times)

Obear1971 · « **on:** June 25, 2002, 04:07:36 AM »

Aircraft Strength and Losses
British Air Force Strength During the Battle of Britain
Number of immediately available fighters, according to "The Battle of Britain" by Peter G. Cooksley (Ian Allan Ltd., 1990)

Hurricanes Spitfires

----------------------------

21 August 615 326

30 August 580 287

8 September 530 275

15 September 472 256

2 October 482 281

18 October 512 285

Losses in the Battle of Britain
July 1940

----------------------

R.A.F. Fighter Command

----------------------

Hurricane    33 destroyed, 17 damaged

          23 killed, 0 missing, 11 wounded

Spitfire     34 destroyed, 24 damaged

          25 killed, 0 missing, 9 wounded

Blenheim     4 destroyed, 1 damaged

          9 killed, 0 missing, 1 wounded

Defiant       6 destroyed, 1 damaged

          10 killed, 0 missing, 2 wounded

TOTAL:       77 destroyed, 43 damaged

          67 killed, 0 missing, 23 wounded

----------------------

Luftwaffe

----------------------

Dornier Do 17    39 destroyed, 13 damaged

          30 killed, 74 missing, 19 wounded

Junkers Ju 87    13 destroyed, 11 damaged

          10 killed, 12 missing, 3 wounded

Junkers Ju 88    39 destroyed, 11 damaged

          52 killed, 67 missing, 11 wounded

Heinkel He 111    32 destroyed, 3 damaged

          52 killed, 85 missing, 6 wounded

Messerschmitt Bf 109 48 destroyed, 14 damaged

          17 killed, 14 missing, 13 wounded

Messerschmitt Bf 110 18 destroyed, 4 damaged

          13 killed, 17 missing, 2 wounded

Other       27 destroyed, 1 damaged

          19 killed, 33 missing, 15 wounded

TOTAL:       216 destroyed, 57 damaged

          193 killed, 302 missing, 69 wounded

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August 1940

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R.A.F. Fighter Command

----------------------

Hurricane    211 destroyed, 44 damaged

          85 killed, 1 missing, 68 wounded

Spitfire     113 destroyed, 40 damaged

          41 killed, 3 missing, 38 wounded

Blenheim     13 destroyed, 10 damaged

          6 killed, 3 missing, 0 wounded

Defiant       7 destroyed, 3 damaged

          7 killed, ? missing, 4 wounded

Beaufighter    0 destroyed, 1 damaged

          0 killed, 0 missing, 0 wounded

TOTAL:       344 destroyed, 98 damaged

          139 killed, 7 missing, 110 wounded

----------------------

Luftwaffe

----------------------

Dornier Do 17    71 destroyed, 30 damaged

          70 killed, 129 missing, 57 wounded

Junkers Ju 87    57 destroyed, 16 damaged

          35 killed, 58 missing, 19 wounded

Junkers Ju 88    89 destroyed, 32 damaged

          94 killed, 182 missing, 19 wounded

Heinkel He 111    89 destroyed, 15 damaged

          113 killed, 204 missing, 35 wounded

Messerschmitt Bf 109 217 destroyed, 45 damaged

          54 killed, 91 missing, 39 wounded

Messerschmitt Bf 110 119 destroyed, 40 damaged

          80 killed, 113 missing, 22 wounded

Other       27 destroyed, 4 damaged

          17 killed, 27 missing, 10 wounded

TOTAL:       669 destroyed, 182 damaged

          463 killed, 804 missing, 201 wounded

----------------------

September/October 1940

----------------------

R.A.F. Fighter Command

----------------------

Hurricane    294 destroyed, 77 damaged

          107 killed, 2 missing, 10 wounded

Spitfire     195 destroyed, 76 damaged

          67 killed, 1 missing, ? wounded

Blenheim     12 destroyed, 4 damaged

          26 killed, 3 missing, 55 wounded

TOTAL:       501 destroyed, 157 damaged

          200 killed, 6 missing, 162 wounded

----------------------

Luftwaffe

----------------------

Dornier Do 17    82 destroyed, 36 damaged

          147 killed, 94 missing, 50 wounded

Junkers Ju 87    1 destroyed, 3 damaged

          1 killed, ? missing, ? wounded

Junkers Ju 88    175 destroyed, 85 damaged

          251 killed, 227 missing, 74 wounded

Heinkel He 111    131 destroyed, 78 damaged

          203 killed, 184 missing, 67 wounded

Messerschmitt Bf 109 326 destroyed, 96 damaged

          77 killed, 159 missing, 36 wounded

Messerschmitt Bf 110 124 destroyed, 26 damaged

          91 killed, 109 missing, 17 wounded

Other       43 destroyed, 7 damaged

          23 killed, 35 missing, 16 wounded

TOTAL:       882 destroyed, 331 damaged

          793 killed, 808 missing, 260 wounded

----------------------

Spitfire vs. Hurricane during the Battle of Britain
>From "Spitfire Special" by Ted Hooton:

          Spitfire Hurricane Time

------------------------------------------------------------------

Average Strength 295    461

11th Group    137    243

Average Strength 38%    62% July 1 -- September 30

German shot down 43%    57% July 1 -- September 30

Bf 109 shot down 49% (of all lost) July -- August

Bf 109 shot down 54% (of all lost) September

Combat losses    39%    61%

Accident rate    7%    7%

------------------------------------------------------------------

Spitfire vs. Bf 109 : 219 to 180 lost.

Hurricane vs. Bf 109 : 272 to 153 lost.

------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

British Air Force losses during WWII

--------------------------------------------------------------------

    B. C. A.C.C. F.C. T.A.F.   C.C.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

1939    40       3       | 288

1940   509    1186       |

1941   985      651       233

1942 1543      688       302

1943 2474      569    177    279

1944 2904      397   1305    305

1945   708       64    633    132

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Total 9163    70 3558   2115   1579

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Abbreviations: B.C. Bomber Command; A.C.C. Army Co-operation Command;

F.C. Fighter Command; T.A.F. 2nd Tactical Air Force; C.C. Coastal

Command. Numbers include aircraft that returned to base but were

not repairable. Source: Jane's 45-46.

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Finnish Air Force Strength, november 1939

Fokker C.X      29

Fokker C.V       7

Fieseler Fi.156 Storch    2

Blackburn Ripon       8

Junkers K.43       7

VL Saaski       3

VL Kotka        1

Fokker D.XXI      36

De Havilland Moth    3

Bristol Bulldog      10

Bristol Blenheim    16

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Air Force Strengths on 10 May 1940
Belgium

Fairey Fox    98

Renard R 31    21

Gloster Gladiator 15

Hawker Hurricane 11

Fiat C.R.42    23

Fairey Battle    14

The Netherlands

Fokker C.X    11

Fokker T.V    9

Fokker D.XXI    28

Fokker G.I    23

Koolhoven F.K.51 16

Douglas DB-8A    11

mipoikel · « **Reply #1 on:** June 25, 2002, 05:17:02 AM »

If I remember right was it that if germans would have done 1 air attack more vs England, RAF would have been destroyed but Göring stopped attacks because high losses.

I maybe wrong but thats how I remember it.

Staga · « **Reply #2 on:** June 25, 2002, 05:41:00 AM »

For a country who attacked Russia we sure had small airforces

ra · « **Reply #3 on:** June 25, 2002, 08:13:15 AM »

<<>>

That is not what I have read. Germany never came close to wiping out Fighter Command, which would have been the first step in winning the battle. It was a tough fight for both sides, but Fighter Command remained effective throughout.

Prior to the battle, a German LW general (I forget who) calculated that they would need to attain a 5:1 K/D over the RAF in order to achieve their goals, something they had never done before, not even in Poland or France. The LW ended up losing more planes to accidents than they had expected to lose in combat for the whole battle.

All this from : Stephen Bungay, "The Most Dangerous Enemy - A History of the Battle of Britain"

ra

DmdNexus · « **Reply #4 on:** June 25, 2002, 09:12:44 AM »

These numbers are missleading when taken out of the context of the battle's strategy and the technology employed at the time. There are some very important facts which are the reason for why the RAF was so successful - and it was not due to better pilots or better planes. Many of the LW pilots were seasoned vets from the Spanish civil war.

RAF had very good military intellegence and RADAR.
This allowed the RAF to choose their air combat battles effectively.

Early on, fighter command chose to engage only bombers and ignore fighter to fighter battles as much as possible.

RADAR and MI allowed the RAF to know where the bombers were, their altitude, aproximate numbers, how long they would be in route, and where they were going to attack. So the RAF could effective deploy and intercept and did not have to constantly fly BARCAPS and sweeps. They could sortie a consentrated force from several fields and vector directly to the most critical enemy bomber formations.

After crossing the English channel the LW fighters had little fuel, only enough for about 10 to 15 minutes over southern England for dogfights - so they could not effectively sweep. In fact after a certain point, they could not escort the bombers at all.

The bombers had to rely upon their speed and guns for defense - which did not help them much.

Ghosth · « **Reply #5 on:** June 25, 2002, 10:24:16 AM »

I think the problem was that if they continued to bomb airbases in another week or 2 they'd of run out of pilots.

Trained pilots were in short supply, and it takes time to train a pilot properly.

AC Numbers while low at one point were never as close to low as the LW needed to invade.

Basicly, they never had a chance to invade.

Once frustrated with Englands tough nut to crack Hitler turned East to mother russia. This saved the world by giving the USA time to gear up & mobilize. Without Russia mauling the german army's there would have been no Normandy invasion.

Obear1971 · « **Reply #6 on:** June 25, 2002, 07:58:33 PM »

Actually fighter comand was being hit hard, the german airforce at the start of the BOB concentrated there bombing on the RAF airfileds, this had a HUGE effect on the ability to wage air war for the RAF.

They then changed there tactics and decided to bomb London instead, thinking that it would break the will of the people if there capital city was bombed flat.

This gave the RAF time to re-build there depleated airforce. and tired pilots

This decision was a huge factor in the outcome of the war.

Pongo · « **Reply #7 on:** June 25, 2002, 08:35:01 PM »

For every day of the Battle of Britian. the RAF had more fighters then they had the day befor..and every day they had more then twice as many pilots as they had fighters..
The LW never even came close to winning that battle. Not on any given day.
The British had focused thier empire on preparing to defend thier island from the sea and air..the germans had never given thought to the opposite.
The LW got thier butts handed to them in the BOB.

Read Chaper one of Brute Force by John Ellis.

Obear1971 · « **Reply #8 on:** June 27, 2002, 02:32:08 AM »

hmm got my info from a visit to the wwii warbunkers in london, were churchill etc went dureing the raids, though that was about as good a sourse of info your EVER going to get

Nashwan · « **Reply #9 on:** June 27, 2002, 03:59:34 AM »

There's a good article on logistics during the BoB in one of the RAF airpower journals at http://www.raf.mod.uk/airpower/doctrine

It's in the Winter 2000 edition

Basically, the only period when the Luftwaffe put real pressure on the RAF, late August/ early September, they did so by flying an unsustainable sortie rate.

The RAF could not continue to fight at that rate, but the Luftwaffe could afford it even less. Losses for the Luftwaffe fighters were high, replacements low, and serviceability fell. By the endof the first week in September, it was the Luftwaffe that needed the break provided by attacks on London, far more so than the RAF.

Supply of aircraft was never an issue for the RAF, so much so that front line strength never fell, and reserves of Hurricanes and Spits in storage were never totally depleted. In contrast, the Luftwaffe by September had less fron line strength, and less pilots, than when they started the Battle.

By early September, the RAF had more fighters in the front line than the Luftwaffe, who had seen their strength fall from about 900 109s at the start, to around 650 operational 109s. If you take out unserviceable aircraft, the Luftwaffe had even less fighters ready for operations.

WildBlue · « **Reply #10 on:** June 27, 2002, 04:19:28 AM »

Uhhhh... There is one thing missing here... It might not have had that big of an effect overall... but there were American pilots there too. Too many people think of the BoB as a purely British effort, American boys lost their lives too. Just thought I would make that reminder. And from what I've read, it was only a test to see how Britain would/could respond. Not to mention keeping them busy while other efforts were made.

robsan · « **Reply #11 on:** June 27, 2002, 05:12:44 AM »

Better the pride that resides
In a citizen of the world
Than the pride that divides
When a colourful rag is unfurled

Neil Peart

KG45 · « **Reply #12 on:** June 27, 2002, 08:52:03 AM »

another factor was where a/c and pilot losses occured.

RAF was on the defensive, fighting over england. if a RAF plane was shot down, but the pilot bailed, he was potentialy available to fight again soon. but a LW pilot lost over the UK was out of the war for good. during the BoB, aircraft shortage for the RAF was never critical, but pilots were in short supply.

Fighter Command was pushed close to the brink, but bad tactics on the part of the LW, including bombing AFs that weren't FC and not conducting follow up raids on AFs, allowed the FC the escape a real crippling blow.

also, the LW never really concentrated on the UK. hitler was way more interested in invading russia.

ra · « **Reply #13 on:** June 27, 2002, 08:56:29 AM »

Wildblue, there were only a handful of US pilots in the BoB. You shouldn't mistake Hollywood movies like Pearl Harbor for history.

ra

Kratzer · « **Reply #14 on:** June 27, 2002, 10:04:15 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by ra
You shouldn't mistake Hollywood movies like Pearl Harbor for history.

Wait a sec... are you saying that toejam was FAKE? I refuse to believe that Jerry Bruckheimer would lie to me!