Author Topic: Yamato BB.  (Read 1763 times)

Offline Sabre

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« Reply #60 on: September 09, 2002, 08:52:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
Sabre,

Kongo wasn't a BB.  Kongo was a Battlecruiser.

I'd select the Nagato as the base Japanese BB.  Nagato was the only Japanese BB, or Battlecruiser, to survive the war.  We expended her at the Bikini A-bomb tests, though she had to be finished off with conventional weapons.

The problem with the Nagato, Kongo, Pensylvania, California, ect, ect is that they lack the AA of the Yamato, Iowa, King George V, ect.


Indeed?  Everything I ever remember seeing on the Kongo listed her as a BB (not doubting, just commenting).  As far as I recall, no one built any battlecruisers after WWI, as the flaws in the whole BC concept had been exposed at Jutland.  Kongo was built after WWI.  Interesting.  Could you quote your source?  Thanks.  Also, Nagato would be a fine addition to AH, too.

Brady: Yamoto was only ultimate in size and calibre.  The Iowa class represents the best all around battleship class ever built, IMO.  Yamoto had poor armor arrangement and water-tight comparmentalization, by all I've read.  The superior fire control, speed, and maneuverability of the Iowa's would have given it the edge against the Yamoto, IMO.  They also have the longest operational record, FWIW.
Sabre
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Offline Sakai

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« Reply #61 on: September 09, 2002, 09:24:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sabre



Brady: Yamoto was only ultimate in size and calibre.  The Iowa class represents the best all around battleship class ever built, IMO.  Yamoto had poor armor arrangement and water-tight comparmentalization, by all I've read.  The superior fire control, speed, and maneuverability of the Iowa's would have given it the edge against the Yamoto, IMO.  They also have the longest operational record, FWIW.


And the USN felt their fire control (radar controlled gunnery) was superior.  Indeed, Japanese AARs always talk about the accuracy and rate of fire when facing US ships.

Sakai
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Offline Sabre

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« Reply #62 on: September 09, 2002, 09:44:28 AM »
Sakai, I meant no slight to the Japanese Navy.  In 1941, I've no doubt that Japanese gunnery was superior to USN gunnery.  They'd been training hard for war.  Even during the night engagement at Java, where the Allied flotilla should have had the edge with their radar controlled gunnery, the IJN cleaned their chronometers.  The same thing happened at Savo.  This was due in part to the fact that the Allied commander at Java didn't trust that "new fangled radar," and hence didn't take advantage of the increased engagement range it would have afforded him.  The Japanese optics, particularly their night optics were significantly superior to American equipment at the beginning of the war.  However, by late in 1944 America had surpassed Japan in pretty much every technological area (with the possible exception of night optics), and had had the time and resources to train their personnel to be the equal of Japanese naval personnel.  The Iowa class was the best the US could build at the time, and was a generation ahead in all regards to the Yamoto.  Radar fire control was much improved, and it use practiced and accepted.  The speed and maneuverability edge of the Iowa would allow it to dictate the fight.

Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on your point of view, Halsey missed the one opportunity to test these two behemouths against one another, at Leyte Gulf.  By dragging his battle line with his carriers in pursuit of the Japanese Northern Decoy Force, he forever left open the question of which battlewagon was "better."
Sabre
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Offline Sakai

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« Reply #63 on: September 09, 2002, 10:13:43 AM »
Sabre:

Think we Miscommed.  I agree entirely with your assessments, I wasn't talking about Jap Gunnery but rather US.  Sorry for being so clipped and cryptic.  

Agree, it would have been sweet to have seen the Iowas take on the Jap Fleet BBs, but then, what would we have to talk about?

Sakai
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Offline Red Tail 444

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« Reply #64 on: September 09, 2002, 10:37:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by senna
Actually the Yamato went on to save the world from evil aliens.
http://members.aol.com/neghvar2/starblazers.mid

We need Andromeda and the Comet Empire in AH...

Perked fer sure :cool:

Offline Red Tail 444

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« Reply #65 on: September 09, 2002, 10:45:05 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sabre
Hmm…which battleship to build first?


Gimme the Big Mamie (USS Massachusetts), 19 battle stars! Iowa Class.

No pic, go to Fah Riva, MA, to check her out :D

Offline vatiAH

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« Reply #66 on: September 09, 2002, 11:00:48 AM »
Massachusetts is a South Dakota Class battleship.  


Vati66
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Offline Red Tail 444

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« Reply #67 on: September 09, 2002, 11:31:05 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by vatiAH
Massachusetts is a South Dakota Class battleship.  

Vati66


Yes you are right. was also reading about the Iowa while she was mothballed in Newport...got carried away.

I stand corrected.

Offline frank3

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« Reply #68 on: September 09, 2002, 12:46:58 PM »
How about he bismarck guys:D  think it's showed on earlier pictures, that one of Viper

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #69 on: September 09, 2002, 08:07:07 PM »
Sabre,

We called the Kongo class BBs, but they were really battlecruisers.  You are almost correct in saying that nobody laid down any battlecruisers after WWI.  The Kongo, and her sister ships, were built for Japan by the United Kingdom, Kongo entering service in 1913.  The last battlecruisers (CBs) were the Alaska class, only two of which were completed, both in 1944.

By contrast, the Nagato class was the first native built Japanese battleships, and were the most powerful in the world when they were launched in 1920 (Mutsu in 1921), and the first to mount 16" guns.  They were faster than the UK's Queen Elizabeth class (the best BBs in the world prior to the Nagato class), better armed and better armored.


Actually, my favorite Japanese ships are the Takao class CAs.  They were quite possibly the finest heavy cruisers of WWII.  The Alaska class was ordered in part to hunt Takao class ships as we were expecting the Japanese to use them as comerce raiders, a role they were exceptionally suited to.  Fortunately for us (me in particular as my grandfather was in the Merchant Marine in the South Pacific) the Japanese were fixated on the "line of battle" concept and slaved themselves to the BBs and CBs.
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Offline hyena426

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« Reply #70 on: September 09, 2002, 08:44:00 PM »
i think they should put in the first iron battle wagon,,,,,the uss monitor!! hehahehahe

Offline Sabre

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« Reply #71 on: September 10, 2002, 08:29:40 AM »
Karnak, thanks for the info.  I new the UK built a number of ships for the IJN prior to WWI, but didn't realize the Kongo was one of those.  The picture in my head is of a more modern looking vessel, with a very tall and distinct "pagoda" superstructure.  Perhaps is was the Nagato I was thinking of after all.  I was aware of the Alaska class, but thought they were cancelled before they'd been completed.  Thanks again.
Sabre
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Offline Thud

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« Reply #72 on: September 10, 2002, 04:15:04 PM »
The pagoda bridge structures were added just prior to WWII, the IJN seemed to have developed a fetish for those in the 30's.

Offline Sarge1

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« Reply #73 on: September 12, 2002, 12:35:31 PM »
USS New Jersey

Offline Sabre

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« Reply #74 on: September 12, 2002, 02:45:38 PM »
Just drug out the game manual for my old wargame, "Battlewagon" and looked up the stats on the Kongo.  While even in there, they call it a BB, the armor thicknesses (belt, deck, turret face, and turret top) are certainly more indicative of a battlecruiser's.  It says she was refitted around 1930, which matches Thud's info about when the pagota-like superstructure and masts were added.  Now USS Montana...that's a battleship! Says she was supposed to be completed in 1944, but was cancelled before she was launched.  Man, what a monster, and twelve 16-inch guns to boot.  Armor penetration for the 16-inch and the Yamoto's 18-inch were pretty close, with the Yamoto's guns out-ranging the American 16-inch by about 2 miles...for anyone interested.  Again, by all accounts, the Yamoto's armor arrangement and water-tight compartmentalization was supposedly inferior, though both Yamoto and Musashi took one heck of a pounding before they went down.
Sabre
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