Author Topic: I want to make something clear... (Read 252 times)

J_A_B · « **on:** July 06, 2002, 10:58:53 AM »

I don't like the "pizza" terrain.

But I don't blame the AK's for its flaws. I think you guys did a GOOD job on the map. I like the desert terrain, I like the general idea of the different altitudes, I like the canyons, and I like the fact that GV's have a place to fight without constantly being killed by planes. The "pizza" shape doesn't matter to me at all. Zoom the clipboard in a little and it looks normal anyway.

My hats off to the AK's for building a good map. I'm serious--you guys did a good job. Physically it's a well-made map.

What I don't like is the requirements this map was built to. Too big, too spread out, too many places to milkrun, not a small enough "front" to encourage a constant large-scale battle. Those requirements were HTC's choice, not the AK's, and ANY map built to those requirements will have the same flaws (or the same benefits if you're someone who likes it).

I hope that either subsequent maps are disigned to different criteria, or the player base at large decides to actively make up for the fundamental shortcommings present in this map type. Or better yet, lets hope HTC triples their player base in short order

So what I'm telling you AK guys, is don't take the criticism personally because it's not really directed at you. You guys did a damn good job considering the requirements you had. I think HTC is looking a little too far ahead with this map size; as has been suggested elsewhere an "interim" map using less area might have been a better fir to the current AH player base.

J_A_B

Frost · « **Reply #1 on:** July 06, 2002, 11:17:30 AM »

I've been seeing a lot more large scale furballs at the low alt coastline bases that are all lover this map. I think most people will adjust to this map pretty well as we get used to it. Was hard finding a fight at first, but now I'm seeing pretty large dar bars at a number of fields.

CptTrips · « **Reply #2 on:** July 06, 2002, 12:19:24 PM »

Hey, It's no drama. I don't have any problem with someone who says: "Look, thanks for the effort, but I have some problems with this design. Here is what I feel they are....blah, blah, blah" Thats reasonable. Its good feedback. Thats how thing evolve and improve over time.

If it turns out this size is too big right now, they can stick it on their shelf for later.

But right now they need to use it to exercise the new strat system. They need to give it enough time to decide how much of it is "really too big" and how much is just "I-fear-change" hystaria. I'm sure other maps are being worked on. There might even be ways of reconfiguring this one to lessen the problem. Either way this map is providing them data to draw from.

They're learning new things as we go. They're learning how to make these large maps work. They learned things about how the clipboard map needs to work with this many bases. I think providing a toggle for the field icons has made it alot easier to find a fight. I think that giving a text msg with the field# that is under attack would help player respond in a focused manner. These thing have to worked out BEFORE we have 1000 players.

Is this map too big for the current player base? I dunno. I haven't completely formed an opinion. I haven't had any trouble finding good fights, but thing kinda feel different. Maybe slightly disconnected. I do feel it has been improving as people learn their way around the new layout. I certainly can see where it might be too big for the 4am Euro crowd.

You know I was thinking last night. One thing that might be cool, is if the maps and server could save their state. If you could suspend the war, write it to file, and start up where you left off later. Then you could have a series of concurrently running maps of different sizes that are swapped in and out at different times of the day to best fit the player load curve. But when you came back to a map, everything is where you left it so you can continue the war where you left off. Just an idea.

Regards,
Wab

J_A_B · « **Reply #3 on:** July 06, 2002, 12:31:28 PM »

"Then you could have a series of concurrently running maps of different sizes that are swapped in and out at different times of the day to best fit the player load curve. But when you came back to a map, everything is where you left it so you can continue the war where you left off. Just an idea. "

And a GOOD idea at that. As you noted, a map which is fine for 500 players isn't necessarily much fun for 100. That's a VERY good idea you had. Perhaps they could even make the map switching coincide with sunrise/sunset so you'd know how long the map has just by looking at the virtual time of day

J_A_B

Samm · « **Reply #4 on:** July 06, 2002, 01:01:00 PM »

Quote

I want to make something clear

Rub vegatable oil onto paper .
But searously, I'm not sure the problem is the scale of the map so much as the multitude of bases. I personally would like the terrain better if it had half as many bases, yes I know this would increase the distance between some of the bases .

Maverick · « **Reply #5 on:** July 06, 2002, 01:01:31 PM »

JAB

Not everyone LKES the massive furballs. This map gives you a choice. Don't slam them for not making just what you like. If you can't find a furball in the pizza world, you aren't even looking at the map. I saw several during the times I was up and also saw the opportunity to opt OUT of the furball into less thickly populated fights that I like. Here, there is a choice, use yours and allow others to use theirs.

J_A_B · « **Reply #6 on:** July 06, 2002, 01:44:24 PM »

Massive furballs? When did I ever say anything about massive furballs? You seem to be responding to things that I haven't been talking about!

FYI, I've gone on the record numerous times as saying MASSIVE 30-40 plane furballs are a BAD thing due to problems like icon overload and netlag. Such massive gangfests are a problem which will NOT be solved through the use of bigger maps; if anything they'll get worse. "Sustained large-scale battles" does NOT mean "massive furballs".

Before responding it might be wise to at least read what you're responding to and not make stuff up. If that seems a bit tough for you, perhaps you can get Goose or Iceman to help you out.

J_A_B

Kweassa · « **Reply #7 on:** July 06, 2002, 02:20:51 PM »

To be frank, I expected a large map that would have front lines about twice the size of what it was before.

However this new map, with the zones mixed up in this manner, as a result, has frontlines that are about 9 times larger than the previous versions. While AH community has grown, I don't think AH users have increased by nine-fold

.

This pizza map is interesting in it's own manner no doubt, but in my personal preference I do like the more 'conventional' style of map-designing.

The AKs have done a terrific job and deserve a big apprecitiation, but I like to think this map as an experimental stage for introducing the new strat system.

Let's just sit back and wait for what HTC has up their sleeves.

ps) the 'master field' concept with multiple strat targets, IMO, has some great potential. The pizza map has shown us just one way how it can be used, that's all

With this system, for example, bigger maps of the Eastern Front can be now made with historical and sophisticated lay outs resembling the actual terrain. First zone and master field can be placed at the 'gate way to Russia' at Orsha... and conquering this place would open up the strat to the second strat zone, with the master field near Moscow or Stalingrad and etc..

moose · « **Reply #8 on:** July 06, 2002, 02:25:40 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kweassa

ps) the 'master field' concept with multiple strat targets, IMO, has some great potential. The pizza map has shown us just one way how it can be used, that's all With this system, for example, bigger maps of the Eastern Front can be now made with historical and sophisticated lay outs resembling the actual terrain. First zone and master field can be placed at the 'gate way to Russia' at Orsha... and conquering this place would open up the strat to the second strat zone, with the master field near Moscow or Stalingrad and etc..

cc that

Im really looking forward to what the CT terrain team does with the new strat system

Grizzly · « **Reply #9 on:** July 06, 2002, 11:04:49 PM »

Not knowing what the new strat system will do, I have to say I like the new map. I didn't think I would from what it looked like at first, but it seems to be doing what I always wished for AH.

I never cared for the concept of the entire arena fighting together to conquer the world. This map provides separation and the number of fields discourage, or at least slow down arena conquest. I see small groups of players fighting over a couple bases, and single players practicing in unattended areas. There are the furballs and base capture, great canyons to fight in, and many places to do a sneak attack... something for everyone. And most refreshing is not having players complaining about other players not joining in on the arena war.

Maverick · « **Reply #10 on:** July 06, 2002, 11:48:53 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by J_A_B
Massive furballs? When did I ever say anything about massive furballs? You seem to be responding to things that I haven't been talking about!

FYI, I've gone on the record numerous times as saying MASSIVE 30-40 plane furballs are a BAD thing due to problems like icon overload and netlag. Such massive gangfests are a problem which will NOT be solved through the use of bigger maps; if anything they'll get worse. "Sustained large-scale battles" does NOT mean "massive furballs".

Before responding it might be wise to at least read what you're responding to and not make stuff up. If that seems a bit tough for you, perhaps you can get Goose or Iceman to help you out.

J_A_B

jab,

I suggest you read your own posts before you start with the personal remarks roadkill. Here is a quote from your own first post.

What I don't like is the requirements this map was built to. Too big, too spread out, too many places to milkrun, not a small enough "front" to encourage a constant large-scale battle. Those requirements were HTC's choice, not the AK's, and ANY map built to those requirements will have the same flaws (or the same benefits if you're someone who likes it).

I hope that either subsequent maps are disigned to different criteria, or the player base at large decides to actively make up for the fundamental shortcommings present in this map type. Or better yet, lets hope HTC triples their player base in short order

Your post indicated a "large scale battle" this sure as hell sounds like massive furball to me. Now if this upsets you because my opinion about the map is different from yours, tough. Just bend over and kiss my prettythang.

Now last thing, My handle came from the TV show Maverick, you know, cowboys and the west.

SirLoin · « **Reply #11 on:** July 07, 2002, 12:27:58 AM »

This map is a refreshing change and a BIG step in the right direction.

J_A_B · « **Reply #12 on:** July 07, 2002, 03:11:37 AM »

"Your post indicated a "large scale battle" this sure as hell sounds like massive furball to me. "

Always fun to make assumptions, isn't it, Mr. Cowboy? Yanno, you COULD have asked. But you didn't ask, although you felt compelled to respond to me despite not having any idea what I meant. My response to that was a deliberate attempt to get on your nerves, which was apparently successful

Now had you have asked, I happily would have explained that I prefer a fairly static "active" front (maybe 2-3 bases wide) of medium/upper population density. Sort of like BALTIC during pre-peak hours. Quailty fighting, not just a mindless clusterbang massive furball. Thanks to the multi-front nature of AKDESERT, such fights didn't form until one country was reduced to under 10 bases. The fact that my first several flights on AKDESERT were at off-peak hours probably didn't help either--map is WAY big for 150 players.

I'm glad you like the map. No need to be hostile towards those of us who don't--especially myself, as I've stated elsewhere that I'm perfectly willing to wait and see how this map works out in time, even though for now I don't care for it.

"Just bend over and kiss my prettythang. "

Sorry cowboy--even if I was going to do that, it wouldn't be possible since your head is stuffed up there in the way.

J_A_B