Countering High-Yoyo countering

[-ammo-]

I have see this as well. I am closing rapidly on a lower E (lower altitude as well) bandit and see the impending overshoot. I He startsa  break and I go into a zoomand roll my wings in the direction of his break to watch him. I then change my lift vector in the direction of his heading. He then pulls hard into me trying for a snapshot. at this point I have a couple of options that I think worthwhile. I know he has spent even more of his energy and that is a definately plus for me in my P-47.  Depending on other factors (altitude, position, numbers of other enemy) I would then roll my wings level and continue in the zoom my AC is already in. ( I am no longer in a yoyo, just trying to get him slower) If he chooses to attempt to follow, he will have to roll his AC 180 degrees and and attempt to pull into the the same attitude as my AC.  Very rare that a lower E AC can do it and even rarer they will get an effective shot.  

If the energy of the bandit is much closer to yours, or if the bandit is an AC that builds energy much faster than yours, then I reccomend a pure vertical manuever to regain all of your energy in the form of altitude.  I am assuming on you are in a 109G10 and he is in an AC that like a LA7, or Spit9 which builds energy very fast and can turn inside your radious. Just exactly what I face in a P-47 in the MA. Only your AC climbs much better than mine:)

[Andy Bush]

The last figure seems to state the initial problem all over again.

The answer remains the same. DO NOT fly out in front of the defender!!

Let's try a different approach. If you as the attacker see the defender beginning a hard break...and you do not want to attempt a snapshot or a high angle tracking shot...then it behooves you to make the decision to reposition as soon as possible.

Dealing with high aspect positional problems is best done early. As the old saying goes...better several small yo-yos than one big one.

So, if you find yourself in this position...the bandit making a hard break into you as you dive down in your BnZ attack. It may be best to consider the game is up...and pull off immediately.

If you do, then maneuver to his "high six"...not out in front of his 3/9 line. If you've screwed up and waited too long, then use the last ditch maneuver known as the "Quarter Plane", essentially an exaggerated high yo-yo where your goal is to prevent a 3/9 overshoot.

The SimHQ "Perspective" articles explain this maneuver.

[-ammo-]

Originally posted by Andy Bush
The last figure seems to state the initial problem all over again.

The answer remains the same. DO NOT fly out in front of the defender!!

Let's try a different approach. If you as the attacker see the defender beginning a hard break...and you do not want to attempt a snapshot or a high angle tracking shot...then it behooves you to make the decision to reposition as soon as possible.

Dealing with high aspect positional problems is best done early. As the old saying goes...better several small yo-yos than one big one.

So, if you find yourself in this position...the bandit making a hard break into you as you dive down in your BnZ attack. It may be best to consider the game is up...and pull off immediately.

If you do, then maneuver to his "high six"...not out in front of his 3/9 line. If you've screwed up and waited too long, then use the last ditch maneuver known as the "Quarter Plane", essentially an exaggerated high yo-yo where your goal is to prevent a 3/9 overshoot.

The SimHQ "Perspective" articles explain this maneuver.

yes ideally you never ever want to overshoot your enemy, but guess what. This is Aces High and the player will see countless scenarios presented to him. Including overshoots. Best to be prepared and to store some evasion tactics in his bag of tricks

[Andy Bush]

There is no excuse for flying ahead of the bandit's 3/9 line.

Here is your diagram again.

[-ammo-]

well my artistic ability in paint is surely lacking.  Your ego certainly is not.  The good thing is you do really bring alot of knowlege to this forum  ( often at the expense of someones toes).

[Andy Bush]

In RL, we don't critique the person. We critique the maneuver. It's a technique I learned at TOPGUN nearly 25 years ago.

This discussion is not about anyone or their diagrams. It's only about BFM. How to fly BFM correctly...and how not to make mistakes.

My purpose in being here is to help folks fly good BFM and not make mistakes.

My apologies to anyone who thought I was being critical of them.

[UnDeth]

You flew at Top Gun Andy?

[Andy Bush]

Yes and no.

When I was a USAF Fighter Weapons School instructor, we had a deal with TOPGUN where one of us would attend the school as a "monitor"...the idea being that we would go through the entire syllabus and exchange ideas and techniques with the TOPGUN instructors. We did not fly student sorties, but we did bum rides in the back seat of the F-5F and TA-4 to observe these sorties.

At the end of the course, we flew as a "guest" to supplement the TOPGUN instructor force in the final syllabus mission (a multi-bogey many v many go-for-it over San Clemente Island).

I also flew in other TOPGUN missions as well. But, I am not a TOPGUN graduate! I just lucked out and had the chance to fly there a number of times.

[Urchin]

Andy, I understand what you are saying.  However, I often use that exact move that you are saying I should *NOT* use to sucker spits into coming up after me.  I start my yo-yo late to give them an opportunity to come up after me, then I merely enter a spiral climb instead of beginning the 'diving turn' part of the low yo-yo.  

I'll also pull up into a plane that is trying to BnZ me to guage how much energy they have (feint my typical move, then if they zoom, I'll follow them up for a little ways).  The 109G-10 is real good at climbing though, if I was in a poor climbing plane I'd probably get my bellybutton shot off.  It does seem to work to a lesser extent in the other 109s though.

[humble]

Urchin,

I think you have 2 different situations...one where the attacker is in effect angle fighting and manuevering to maintain a rear quarter aspect with the intent of creating a shot...and your situation where you have enough stored energy to deny a shot due to range limitations for a guns solution. I'm guessing the "rule" there is "don't fly in front of the 3-9 line if you'll get your plane chewed up doing it"...obviously the rope is a classic tactic and I've found utilizing during the "mid-game" makes it much more effective than at the merge.

As for ammo's earlier comment, I've often been on the recieving end of Andy's "corrections". I always have found is comments even handed and fair. I know his contribuations back during the original training tour here were invaluable to many.

When you do something for a living you treat it a bit differently than in a game, especially if a mistake buys you ~ 96 cubic feet of space under a well manicured lawn.