Combat Trim.

[Maniac]

So the old system will be gone once the new Combat trim is in?



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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-

[Andy Bush]

Nath

Just to clarify my words...

>>So, what Andy said is that pilots never trimmed their aircraft in BFM<<

I tend to 'never say never'! The reason is that air combat is such an expansive subject that there is probably always an exception to every rule...and so there is with trimming during BFM. One example might be a high speed extension where the pilot is in the maneuver long enough that a pitch trim input is worth the effort.

But, I'll stick with the general intent of what I said...as a rule, pilots did not attempt to change their trim settings in the three axes (pitch, roll, or yaw) during aggressive BFM maneuvering...especially roll and yaw. Out of trim pitch and roll stick forces would have been manually over-ridden (the pilot would have just held the stick pressure and ignored it). If the pilot noticed an out of trim yaw tendency, he would have corrected with rudder pedal input.

>>they didn't have a 'combat trim' system<<

Correct...there was no such thing.

>>they flew their aircraft and kept it stable with stick movements<<

Well...stick (pitch and roll) and rudder (yaw) movements, to be correct.

>>Thus, combat trim is unrealistic.<<

From a purist point of view, I suppose so...but let's wait to see what it looks like before we pass judgment.

>>What Andy said isn't positive from a realistic sim POV.<<

If you mean that it is 'negative' to point out that a particular feature has no counterpart in real life, perhaps so.

But, I'm not trying to be negative. Instead, my objective is to explain trim...how it works and when it was used. Once our readers understand the subject, they are free to decide if the feature is 'unrealistic' or not.

Personally, given the amount of differing opinion on the matter, I'd level the playing field by leaving it out of the game. Of all the aspects of BFM that had an effect on the outcome of an engagement, trim had about as much impact as the color of the pilot's hair.

Conversely, if folks decided that they want trim in the game, then it should be modeled correctly. It should be completely manual...and it should be adequately described in the game docs. Once that is the case, then let the fun begin!

Andy

[Vladd]

 

Originally posted by Andy Bush:
Nath

>>Thus, combat trim is unrealistic.<<

From a purist point of view, I suppose so...but let's wait to see what it looks like before we pass judgment.

>>What Andy said isn't positive from a realistic sim POV.<<

If you mean that it is 'negative' to point out that a particular feature has no counterpart in real life, perhaps so.

I think the point is that whilst combat trim may be somewhat unrealistic (a neccessary compromise gives it a more positive spin), trimming a plane using the the AH controls whilst in combat is more unrealistic yet.

Getting into a deck level turnfight and cranking elevator trim right up to gain an advantage (so easily done, although it never even occurred to me until I read these threads) is particually dweebish - almost as EZ Mode as using rudder trim on a 109  

RL pilots trim instinctively through 'feel', scarecely giving it any thought. In non-combat flight it's not hard. And trimming during a dogfight just didn't happen: Pilots struggled with the stick, the rudder, and G-forces instead. These were usually adequate to compensate for incorrect trim.


Seems to me that the real pilots who post here are pretty unanimous that trim was not generally a big factor in combat.  

In AH it can be due to stick modelling restrictions. Draw your own conclusions about the current trim system. Personally, I think CT MAY be about to improve it.


I have faith: Looking forward to 1.04  


Vladd

[Ping]

 I agree Vladd.
 There are many things that are not realistic about this sim/game that is due to the very fact there are no RL feedbacks.
 CT is an unrealistic option that is being used to make up for PC limitations.
 Untill we get Neural links, we will be stuck with improvisation. Ct just may make this sim better.

[Tailslide]

 I prefer to use manual trim for everything it feels more like flying.  Would be great to have trim wheel controllers some day.  Not that big of a deal though.

   TS

[scout]

     

Originally posted by Sharky:
HT,
I understand from your explaination that in say a P-51 that if, for example, you are holding the stick say a little forward and a little to the right to mantain level flight.  When the trim tabs are moved to trim the plane that the stick remains in that foward-right position just that it would now take little to no effort on the pilot to keep it there?  IE the stick is not returned to center when the trim tabs are positioned?
Sharky

That is, intuitively and in a small paragraph exactly how RL trim works.


Now I'll botch it by trying to explain further ...
The purpose (and only purpose AFAIK) of trim is to reduce pilots muscleforce in holding the plane in its aerodynamically optimum position (ie minimum drag).

Trim mechanism is often an small extra surface on the nominal control surface that 'flies' the control surface to different positions depending on its deflection.

Attempt at ASCII art:
The 3 big slashes are the nominal surface, the minus sign is the smaller trim surface attached to the nominal surface.
Imagine this to be an elevator trimmed 'down'.

\
..\
....\
......*--

Edit: Ignore the dots

Another, and simpler, trim mechanism is just an adjustable spring loading attached to the stick (much like the springs in an joystick actually, except the centering of spring forces is adjustable).

Unless you have an Force-Feedback Joystick _with a moving zero-force centering_, you can never have realistic trim with a computer joystick.


As for the CT changes, I don't quite understand what HT is saying.

Is the CT only having an effect for pitch trim ?

This much I get; the elimination of 'extra deflection by trim', most useful at low speed turning is a step towards realism.


[This message has been edited by scout (edited 09-09-2000).]