Author Topic: The Great Depression of 2003  (Read 764 times)

Offline LePaul

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The Great Depression of 2003
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2002, 11:03:39 AM »


I suppose you beleive Nostrodamus too?

I'd prefer to think the future is dynamic to what we do today, static predictions and such seldom, if ever, mold.

Offline Eagler

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The Great Depression of 2003
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2002, 11:06:52 AM »
miko

what about this angle:

"Almost all countries in the world use the U.S. dollar as their reserve currency. They have bought trillions and are holding them. If another currency becomes more valuable or is viewed as more stable, then the world will switch currencies, and trillions of dollars will come back into the country -- inflation would be inevitable and the dollar would lose its value.
In the week ending July 5, the dollar closed consistently at or near parity with the Euro. As of this posting it sits at (US) 99 cents and has been hovering there for more than a week. Since various economic" reforms" from the 1950s to the 1970s removed the dollar from the gold standard it has been a fiat currency, unconnected to any measure of intrinsic value. The full faith and credit of the United States -- along with its military -- have given the dollar its value. The Euro is partially backed by gold and there have been lingering but credible rumors for years that the U.S.'s gold reserves have been moved to Europe."

Wouldn't this scenerio result in a valueless dollar and booming inflation?
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Offline Curval

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Re: The Great Depression of 2003
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2002, 11:19:04 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
How would one prepare for this?


If you believe that there is going to be a depression get out of equities now!  Invest the funds into triple A rated Government Bonds....or to be really conservative, buy gold.
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain

Offline Krusher

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The Great Depression of 2003
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2002, 11:26:03 AM »
If the 80's were the decade of Greed, wtf was the 90's?

Baming Clinton is wrong, I really dont think either party had much to do with the economy good or bad.

It is rather funny to hear Tom Daschel barking like a rabid dog about GWB being responsible for everything bad that happened in the 90's (and we are paying for now) when you hear about this http://www.nypost.com/commentary/52305.htm

Offline Krusher

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The Great Depression of 2003
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2002, 03:04:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusher
If the 80's were the decade of Greed, wtf was the 90's?

Baming Clinton is wrong, I really dont think either party had much to do with the economy good or bad.

It is rather funny to hear Tom Daschel barking like a rabid dog about GWB being responsible for everything bad that happened in the 90's (and we are paying for now) when you hear about this http://www.nypost.com/commentary/52305.htm


spell check alert !!

Offline ~Caligula~

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The Great Depression of 2003
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2002, 03:34:34 PM »
War used to be what made the US economy spin up....but nowdays it seems no equipment lost in these wars the USA`s waging,thus no need for mass tanks and ships to roll out of assembly lines.

Offline gofaster

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The Great Depression of 2003
« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2002, 10:13:13 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler


Yes, their exaggerations of the issue doesn't help but neither does almost daily 10,000 employee lay offs along with ever expanding discoveries that the "best economy of our lifetime" 93 - 00 was nothing but a bunch of hot air and corruption, just like the admin it emulated.


That "best economy" was generated by a change in the pension laws that no longer forced companies to maintain an employee pension fund (instigated by a US government official who was too close to his business associates) which forced a lot of middle-class salary people to invest in the stock market ala 401(k) plans in order to build a retirement plan.  The corporations stopped their pension funds as a cost-saving device and recouped that money to offset their losses, which made them look like they were going gang-busters on profits, which raised their stock value, which then caused the salary people to put their money in those companies because the company stock was high and the people thought their money would be safe there and be available when they retired in 30 years.

Eventually, the pension-cost savings were fully recouped and there was nothing left to offset the operating losses (and the uncontrolled corporate executive self-greed, but that's another issue).  When the losses were realized, the stock price plummeted, taking the 401(k) plans with it and eroding consumer confidence.

Contributing to this was the large investment people were making (via their 401k stock plans) in the tech sector's dot-Com companies, which was fueled by the growth of the Internet, which was in turn fueled by the increase in homes with access to a computer and a modem.  All of those dot-com companies needed bandwidth and servers to accomodate their business transactions and the telecom industry began to flourish.  As the .Com companies expired into bankruptcy due to either faulty business models or lack of demand for products, the tech sector went belly-up, taking the traditional communications companies with it.  

But there was also another factor contributing to the expiration of the telecom business: the de-regulation of long distance services and fees which split the AT&T core business and opened it up to competition from companies like MCI/Worldcom and Qwest Communications (names sound familiar?), companies who were fueling their low prices by offsetting their losses with cash recovered from the closed pension funds.  As one company undercut their costs with low prices, the other companies were forced to do the same in order to remain competitive in sales.

Now, the telecom companies are teetering on the edge of collapse.  I predict Worldcom will get broken up and bought out for pennies by a local carrier or foreign investor (if the government/taxpayer money doesn't prop it up, which I don't see happening);  AT&T will be laying off employees by the end of this month, with more to follow at year-end (you can bookmark this thread if you don't believe me); and Qwest will close its doors or go the way of Paradyn Communications (a DSL provider that went through severe lay-offs, then cut salaries because they got to the point that if they laid any more people off, they'd cease to function as a business).  Check out Global Crossing for a glimpse into the future of the telecom industry.  I wouldn't be surprised if Adelphia Communications becomes nothing more than a name on a sports arena by this time next season.

But its not just tech and telecom that's hurting.  All of that online business needed shipping in order to deliver the goods that were being purchased, and FedEx and UPS saw increases in demand for their services.  Don't be surprised if UPS, FedEx, and Airborne Express start announcing lay-offs (they've already reduced the number of hours their hourly employees are worked).

So how can the economy turn around?

First, reinstate the pension plans so that people feel they have some long-term security.  We've already seen what happens when the general population (typically, people with only a high-school education) try to handle their own retirement plans.  When the consumer confidence is restored, people will be more likely to make purchases.

Second, invoke criminal charges against Scott Sullivan (CFO of Worldcom) and conduct extremely public trials for corporate wrong-doing.  Send a message to the business leaders.  Bring Ross Perot to task for his involvement in the manipulation of energy prices during the California energy crisis (remember that?).

Third, make it unprofitable for companies to give executives buy-out packages to dismiss.  Tax them to the point that it hurts.  Right now, executives can come into a company, determine how its run, but make those decisions risk-free.  K-Mart did that and ended up paying their ex-CEO big money for running the company into the ground and then resigning.  The bankers supporting K-Mart's bankruptcy proceedings are now suing to recover those funds (but I don't see it being successful).  The decision-makers should bear the risk for bad decisions.  As a stockholder, I want the guy controlling my money to have some skin in the game.

Fourth, re-instate regulation of the telecom and transportation industries, two industries with strong implications for national security.  Airlines began collapsing left and right when the US gov't deregulated the industry, forcing airlines to cut expenses to remain competitive, which led to airlines' reduction in spending on such things as airport security (gee, I wonder what would've happened on Sept. 11, 2001 if gov't regulation had been in place).  Worldcom is going to go the way of Braniff, Eastern, and other major airlines and its going to take down AT&T with it.

And finally, continue farm subsidies.  When the American lifestyle ends up in the crapper, we're going to need a lot of bread for those breadlines.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2002, 10:40:01 AM by gofaster »

Offline Shuckins

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The Great Depression of 2003
« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2002, 01:53:24 PM »
Does anybody remember the Great Depression of 1992?  The depression that was "the greatest depression in American History?"  The depression that was a depression until the economic reports for the last quarter of that year came out in January of 1993, after the presidential election was history?

Did anyone see the news special hosted by Peter Jennings during 1992 (filmed in Detroit I believe) in which he interviewed the family of an auto worker who was worried about potential layoffs?  He began the special with a preliminary speech in front of a 300 thousand dollar home with 50 thousand dollars worth of cars in the background.  

In spite of the hoopla in the media, it appears in retrospect that the economy was merely catching its breath while businesses reorganized.  Actual economic growth for the last quarter of that year was over 4 percent, a rate that continued almost unabated for the next 8 years.  

Nevertheless, the "bad economy" was an issue that helped propel Clinton into the White House.

The current economic crisis is more real than that one.  However, there is nothing wrong with the economy or the stock market that cannot be weathered with a little confidence and steady nerves.

If you want to know what a real depression is read a history of the 1930's.  Talk to a few of the old timers who lived through that period.  My parents had one pair of shoes, which were worn on Sundays.  They went to school barefoot.  The droughts of the early 1930s caused many of the families to lose their farms.  They looked starvation in the face.  Many hunted, fished, and trapped to meet the basic necessities of life.  My mother's family lived in a tent for while building a house out of timber torn out of an old barn on land purchased with a New Deal loan.  More than 25% of the workforce was unemployed.  The expansion of government programs and power that began during that period continues to this day.

A similar depression in the year 2003 would sweep the Democrats into Congress in landslide elections.  Programs of government largess would expand greatly, as would taxes.  Eventually, so many people would be dependent upon government "benevolence" that they would begin to sap the economy and the working class of their energy.  As the decades went by the U.S. would slowly become a second rate economic power.  

If you don't believe it can happen just study the long slide downward of the economies of Great Britain and France.


Regards, Shuckins

Offline gofaster

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This just in...
« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2002, 03:03:20 PM »
"CHICAGO (Reuters) - Sprint Corp., the No. 3 U.S. long-distance telephone company, said on Friday it will cut about 1,200 positions and eliminate certain high-speed Internet platforms in some cities to cut costs amid the telecom industry slowdown. "

In other news, it was revealed that Duke Energy Corp. is the subject of a federal investigation into claims of "roundtrip trading", where volumes of equal units are traded with another company as a way to pump up volumes of trading and reflect increased revenues, a practice that came to light during the investigation into Enron Corporation.  Duke Energy became the subject of the investigation when questions arose concerning its practices during an energy crisis last year.  Its stock is tumbling as a result of the investigation.

On a side note, the American populace laid the blame on the Great Depression on 4 types of people: bankers, brokers, businessmen, and bureaucrats.  If a 2003 depression emerges, the blame would probably be laid on businessmen, brokers, and bureaucrats (in that order).  Might be the first time in US history that the banks aren't blamed for economic woes, mostly because the banks are offering low interest rates on loans and account holder's savings are federally insured against loss.

During the Great Depression, my grandmother raised 9 kids in a tar-paper shack by farming, raising chickens, and, for awhile, selling hot meals out of the back of a boardinghouse kitchen while my grandfather drank himself to death.  I've seen photos of the family that were taken for special events (since photographs were something special to them due to the cost of equipment and film processing).  They didn't have any money, and my grandmother never wore a smile in any of the pictures, but the children weren't depressed because they had something the businessmen, brokers, bankers, and bureaucrats couldn't take away: hope, faith, and the ability to endure hard work.

My mother was the first of her family to get a college degree, and she did it on federal grants and scholarships to nursing schools.

4 of my aunts now have college degrees, my uncle is a successful farmer and citrus distributor, another aunt works for a judge, and my other 2 aunts are active in their churches teaching Bible school and working in an Assisted-Care Living Facility.  My other uncle died of a water-born disease - hepatitis C - which attacks the liver and was unknown at the time.  

The way I see it, if they can endure, so can I.  I already have my Bachelor's Degree.  I'll just have to tighten up the belt.  Good thing I already paid for AH six months in advance :)
« Last Edit: July 12, 2002, 03:06:09 PM by gofaster »

Offline Eagler

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The Great Depression of 2003
« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2002, 03:45:35 PM »
Thanks for the responses, interesting views

what has, in your opinion, keep the economy afloat say the last 12 months?

My guess is credit. Whether its in credit cards or borrowing against your home. It's credit.

How does an economy thrive/grow on borrowed money?
How many of you are up to your eyeballs in credit card debt?
What's the typical debt level of the average American?
Betcha that's a scary number...

Most ppl don't know what it is to pay cash for something anymore, to wait and save for something. They just grab the last credit card at 19% interest they got in the mail yesterday and go get it...
Just another side effect of the me, me, me society we have created.

I think its time to pay the piper..
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Offline Eagler

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DOW < 8000
« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2002, 02:59:14 PM »
Look OUt Below!
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Offline Ripsnort

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Re: DOW < 8000
« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2002, 03:12:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
Look OUt Below!


441 point drop...surprised there are not a few day traders jumping out of their condo's

Offline majic

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The Great Depression of 2003
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2002, 03:16:49 PM »
DOW back up above 8000, no troubles  : )

Offline gofaster

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The Great Depression of 2003
« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2002, 04:15:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by gofaster

I wouldn't be surprised if Adelphia Communications becomes nothing more than a name on a sports arena by this time next season.


Hey, look!  I'm a prophet!
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,58606,00.html

By the way, last Monday WorldCom announced that it would be selling off some of its business.  That makes two for me.

For my hat trick, AT&T will announce lay-offs by month-end!

Offline gofaster

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The Great Depression of 2003
« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2002, 04:29:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
what has, in your opinion, keep the economy afloat say the last 12 months?

My guess is credit. Whether its in credit cards or borrowing against your home. It's credit.


My guess is cash reserves and bank loans (credit).  Large-scale businesses make decisions quarterly, but announce them whenever outside forces dictate.  Credit will work for consumers short-term, so long as consumers can meet their minimum monthly payments, but for larger corporations its a matter of getting funds through profits, investors, investments, and bank loans.  The first three are in the tank.  That leaves bank loans (credit), and those are usually given with longer lifespans.

If the economy doesn't turn around, look for the other shoe to fall: foreclosures.  I'm sure there are some farmers out there that can explain in vivid detail what its like to see your whole world put up for auction.