Author Topic: place your vote... fix the turn rates in AH?  (Read 4278 times)

Offline Karnak

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place your vote... fix the turn rates in AH?
« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2000, 02:18:00 PM »
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  All of out flight models are nerfed again!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok, I've got that off of my shoulders now.  

Lazs does seem to have a general, across the board point having to do with turn rates not matching their historical numbers.  If so, I hope that HiTechCreations takes a look at it to see if there's been a mistake anywhere.  If there has, it seems that this would very significantly favor the boom and zoom fighters, and I don't want to see anything that changes the balance between angles and energies.  Kiitos.

Sisu
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funked

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place your vote... fix the turn rates in AH?
« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2000, 02:23:00 PM »
Thanks Nattulv and Hoolgn.

Everybody - YOU CANNOT COMPARE 50% FUEL REAL LIFE TESTS TO 100% FUEL ACES HIGH TESTS.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 06-01-2000).]

-lazs-

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place your vote... fix the turn rates in AH?
« Reply #32 on: June 01, 2000, 02:36:00 PM »
A little more data from "Soviet Combat Aircraft of the second ww" volume 1 by Gordon and Khazanov...   turn time in seconds for a Lag 5, 20sec.   for a Yak 9U, 20 sec.  German planes were slightly worse.  U.S. planes better as a rule.   These numbers match WB numbers very closely.

The new guy has a point.   More realistic turn rates would help the newbie and add new blood.   The poor turn rates are designed to benefit the experianced B&Z sim vet.

As to the corsair not being a good arena plane... truth is, in an arena setting with it's small map, it is the LW planes that are at a disadvantage.  Artificially low turn rates help them more than any other ac. since they were the worst "turners" of the war in any case.   Any sim that de-emphisises the turn only helps these planes.

Badger... Very impressive grasp of how the FM's of both sims are done.   I admit that I understood only a fraction but..... Would you explain to me, as simply as you can, how WB flight model causes the planes to  unrealisticly lose control and  'spin' into the ground  rather than continue to fly for several minutes and then land simply because they lose a (1)wing?
lazs

Offline Badger

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place your vote... fix the turn rates in AH?
« Reply #33 on: June 01, 2000, 02:42:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by lazs:
Just seems to me that WB turn rates are 25-50% better than AH ones and that Wb rates seem to match "real" ac performance pretty closely.   One of the sims is off by a substantial amount.  
lazs

lazs.....and anyone else who pauses long enough to read carefully the following:

The software programming approaches of both games, specifically relating to the flight model you question, demonstrate the following:

WB v2.76
=======
System =Full force 6 degrees of freedom
Basic System = 2 point lift and drag model
Dynamic CofG Changes = Weapons ONLY
Moment of Inertia Changes = NONE

AH v1.02
======
System = Full force 6 degrees of freedom
Basic System = Sectional airfoil component model, covering all components of the airplane. Also uses CM,CP changes
Dynamic CofG Changes = All loaded components of the airplane.
Moment of Inertia Changes = All loaded components of the airplane.

Therefore, if one feeds the same empirical data specifications for any given aircraft into both programs, the AH software will produce a more accurate result, purely from a physics software modeling point of view. Simply put, it should fly more like the real world aircraft of the same type actually did.  The ONLY unknown here is what flight data specifications did Pyro or Hitech supply the program code as variables.

Given the actually program code limitations on flight modeling listed above, how can anyone seriously be using WB v2.76 as an element of any argument to make a case that it's more valid for its turn rate?

I'm just a country boy and open to any kind of explanation that resolves the obvious ramifications of the above data, so perhaps I've missed something.  


Regards,
Badger



[This message has been edited by Badger (edited 06-01-2000).]

Offline Hooligan

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place your vote... fix the turn rates in AH?
« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2000, 02:54:00 PM »
Funked:

Are you trying to tell me that a 4% weight addition due to an additional 50% fuel load in a 109g2 is going to increase the time to complete a 360 by 50%?  

I just ran the test for g2 for 50% fuel (WEP on) and I got 26s/150mph average for both right and left hand 360 degree turns.

Hooligan

funked

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place your vote... fix the turn rates in AH?
« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2000, 03:28:00 PM »
I just did the test for two planes:
50% fuel, WEP on, as close as I could get to sea level without scraping.    

Me 109G-2
1:08 for 3 turns right or 22.7 seconds per turn.
44 seconds for 2 turns left or 22 seconds per turn.
Speed was about 150 mph, giving radius of 233 to 241 meters.

La-5FN
46 seconds for two turns left or 23 seconds per turn.
47 seconds for two turns right or 23.5 seconds per turn.
Speed was 155 mph giving radius of 252 to 258 meters.

Times plus/minus 0.5 second.

Looks like there may be some discrepancy with NII-VVS data, but doesn't look like much.

Where's the beef?

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 06-02-2000).]

Offline Kieren

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place your vote... fix the turn rates in AH?
« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2000, 04:08:00 PM »
I'm gonna get a piece of this action, too.  

Offline Fury

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place your vote... fix the turn rates in AH?
« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2000, 04:09:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by -lazs-:
Badger... Very impressive grasp of how the FM's of both sims are done.   I admit that I understood only a fraction but..... Would you explain to me, as simply as you can, how WB flight model causes the planes to  unrealisticly lose control and  'spin' into the ground  rather than continue to fly for several minutes and then land simply because they lose a (1)wing?
lazs

I'm not Badger but it sounds to me like the WB flight model is in no way "unrealistic" if it causes your plane to spin into the ground after losing only one of your two wings.  I'm not a pilot either, but my simple grasp of physics (granted it's now almost 20 years old) or possibly my "common sense" tells me that there is no way a one-winged craft could fly straight and level for several minutes and then land.  As a matter of fact, this one-winged spin and crash has happened to me many times in AH and even in FA.  I'd quit any sim that allowed you to fly with one wing, especially if it was shown (via film) to the makers of the sim and they would not fix it.

Fury

lazs

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place your vote... fix the turn rates in AH?
« Reply #38 on: June 01, 2000, 04:10:00 PM »
funked... i aint no hot stick but i think you know I can turn.   I got 28sec and 27sec. for the G2 with 50% fuel on the deck, best of three tries.  I couldn't keep a real steady 150mph.  With just some hasty testing the lag  doesn't seem to be much different.

badger.. don't get me wrong.  I like the AH flight model better in allmost all cases but the "wingless" flight model and sluggish turn model are...... odd.
lazs

Offline wizzer

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place your vote... fix the turn rates in AH?
« Reply #39 on: June 01, 2000, 04:15:00 PM »
All of this turning is making me dizzy.

The only POV I can offer to this discussion is my own comparision between the 2 sims. In WB reversals are much quicker than that in AH. In WB you can reverse on a co-alt tracking bogey as close as 2.0/2.5 and still maintain some E and stay agressive in the fight(depending on the AC of course). In AH however the same ACM is not as easy, and you have to be defensive and evade the the other AC, and attempt to deplete his E state to become the agressor. In other words the fight is not the same between the 2 sims. Which is closer to RL...who knows for sure.

IMHO WB knife fighting is more enjoyable and rewarding, the rest of the qualities I enjoy are in AH.  

The one element of playability is always going to determine its success with the masses. Lets face it there will always be a plethora of furballers in both.

wizzer

funked

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place your vote... fix the turn rates in AH?
« Reply #40 on: June 01, 2000, 05:53:00 PM »
Lazs, I filmed it if you really want to see it.

funked

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place your vote... fix the turn rates in AH?
« Reply #41 on: June 01, 2000, 05:56:00 PM »
BTW I've landed planes in WB with one wing.  A6M is really easy to fly with one wing.

funked

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place your vote... fix the turn rates in AH?
« Reply #42 on: June 01, 2000, 06:07:00 PM »
 
Quote
The new guy has a point. More realistic turn rates would help the newbie and add new blood. The poor turn rates are designed to benefit the experianced B&Z sim vet.

Could the roadkill get any deeper on this thread?

Offline Yeager

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place your vote... fix the turn rates in AH?
« Reply #43 on: June 01, 2000, 06:12:00 PM »
It is good to ponder these things.  Afterall, I want the virtual aircraft to perform as close as possible to their real life inspirations.

That is the whole point of having 190s and 51s and F4Us and LA5s.  To test myself in these differing FMs in a manner close to the actual performers.

That being said, I always considered the WBs FMs to be too responsive.  Too much like a shark fin through water.  Here in AHs I mush into the ground frequently where in WBs I could slice my way out of death pretty easily.  Too easily.  I can also feel momentum pulling me past the angle of my turn.  I like this as it tells me my 5000 pounds of killing machine tends to go where momentum wants it to go.  I never felt this in WBs (v2.7 something as of sept 99 at least).....

Turn performance.  I dont know.  Overall the 190 seems underpowered to me.  The F4U seems too unstable.  The 109 too powerful in the engine.  I have not taken the time to purchase detailed and proven flight data to perform my own analysis.  Ive been too busy flying and having a blast  

Someday I will check these things out I am sure.

Yeager
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Offline Fishu

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place your vote... fix the turn rates in AH?
« Reply #44 on: June 01, 2000, 06:55:00 PM »
turn rates? yeah, fix turn rate of Spitfire.. someone has put zekes turn rate for it   (if thats how spitfrie turns, I wonder if zeke turns in top of needle)

Yeager, I can agree with 190, but 109 overpowered?
Torque has been too great in some versions and also it has lack some speed too, but its pretty much accurate now.. (its also nice monkey bird, climbing that is)
(guess who did notice lack of 109's speed in one version .. *complains complains*)