Author Topic: place your vote... fix the turn rates in AH?  (Read 4003 times)

-lazs-

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place your vote... fix the turn rates in AH?
« Reply #90 on: June 03, 2000, 09:02:00 AM »
So far only karnak and DOA have gotten the point... If all the turn rates were an even 20% low across the board all that would do would be to slow down the game and give an advantage to one type of "style'.   This is fine as the limited planeset of AH favors one style anyway But.... Some planes are off by a much larger margin, in the 30-40% range, and others like the 109's are only off 10-15%.  The biggest advantage to this slow and lopsided model goes to the LW planes and you end up with a 109G's outturning soviet fighters and the pig of a A8 turning allmost equally or better than P51's and Hogs.  Check the -1D and 190A8.  I don't know much about the Typhoon but it is hard to believe that a "real" A8 could outturn it.... Outturn anything actually.

How will they model the 190A5??  It will have to turn better than an A8 and "real" A5's lost 1 turn in three to Planes like the Hog and P51.   Even those amongst us with too many head butts can see what a mess that will be... And they don't have to be karnak either.  
lazs

Offline RAM

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place your vote... fix the turn rates in AH?
« Reply #91 on: June 03, 2000, 09:52:00 AM »
 
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Originally posted by -lazs-:
The biggest advantage to this slow and lopsided model goes to the LW planes
Of course...we all know that HTC are all german planeset nuts, and those who arent karnak and F4UDOA are all a bunch of stupids that we dont bite your bait. Oh,well.

 
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and you end up with a 109G's outturning soviet fighters and the pig of a A8 turning allmost equally or better than P51's and Hogs.  Check the -1D and 190A8.  I don't know much about the Typhoon but it is hard to believe that a "real" A8 could outturn it.... Outturn anything actually.
Lazs. Again. if you say that A8 outturns P51, or F4U ,is because one of this:
1-)You dont know to ride a P51 or F4U
2-)You are fighting against a top fw190 driver
3-)1 and 2
4-)1 and 2 and 3.

OR---YOU ARE TURNING AT MORE THAN 300MPH!. And,excuse me, initial turn of Fw190A8 fast is the best in this sim...as it was in fact.

You are proving time after time that never in your life you have put a hand over a 190 in Aces High.

 
Quote

How will they model the 190A5??  It will have to turn better than an A8 and "real" A5's lost 1 turn in three to Planes like the Hog and P51.   Even those amongst us with too many head butts can see what a mess that will be... And they don't have to be karnak either.  
lazs

Heh..you have real Luftwaffephobia. go to a psiquiatric, bud. First you come here and tell us that all the turning rates suck. Now we hear that all suck except the ones on Me109G and Fw190A?...go and take your phobia pills, bud. If we kill your little bellybutton is because we know to fly your iron. If you dont know to do the same in your planes then is your problem, not ours.

I drive Fw190. Lower than 225 mph even a B26 outturns it (I have seen that). If you cant do it with a F4U is because you need to fly CFS and let AH forever.

OF course there is the chance that you dont know that rollrate in Fw190 is really impressive, and that the plane does really incredible things on the vertical...if you start the climb fast.It can do a funny maneouver called "High yoyo", too ...and other called "sliceback"...you know...or you dont?.

I wont flat turn in my FW190 ever if I am drunk. So if you find that we fly smart...dont whine about it.

lazs you NEVER flew Fw190A8online. NEVER![/i] . I have just checked it. You flew on Tour4, and there is NO kill nor death recorded under your handle in FW190A8...nor in ANY 109. no G10, no G6,no G2,no F4.

I have flown ALL and EVERY plane here. I know how does a hog performs. I know how a P51 performs. I do know how a P38 performs.

You have no F"·$"·ing idea on how a Fw or a ME performs. So dont DARE to say they are overmodelled.

You are a good spammer, bud. But you wont foul us.

Have a nice spamming day. But please,not here.

Macboy

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place your vote... fix the turn rates in AH?
« Reply #92 on: June 03, 2000, 10:22:00 AM »
LOL

Lazs  you spammer you
quit fouling around

LOL

sorry guys, but couldn't resist

LOL

Offline SnakeEyes

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place your vote... fix the turn rates in AH?
« Reply #93 on: June 03, 2000, 11:11:00 AM »
I ain't gonna say that Lazs is necessarily right (I'm not an aeronautics expert and don't claim to be), but RAM you've got no idea what you're talking about.  The 190A8's cornering speed might be at 300 IAS, but the P-51 is still going to handily outturn the A8 at this speed.

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funked

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place your vote... fix the turn rates in AH?
« Reply #94 on: June 03, 2000, 11:27:00 AM »
Lazs, you've still not made any kind of case based on flight test data, or even a physical analysis!

Read the AFDU flyoff of Fw 190A against the Mustang.  Even against the Mustang I (which turned a LOT better than the Merlin version), Fw 190A could give it problems in a turning battle.  

With flaps down in AH, P-51D eats the Fw 190A-8 for breakfast!

Same for the F4U!  Hell a good F4U pilot can give a Spit 9 a problem if he uses his flaps.

If you are having trouble out turning the Fw 190A in these planes, you need to work on your flying, not complain about the FM.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 06-03-2000).]

funked

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place your vote... fix the turn rates in AH?
« Reply #95 on: June 03, 2000, 11:31:00 AM »
SnakeEyes, I'm kidding.  Lazs has just as much proof that WB turn rates are off as he has proof that AH turn rates are off, so I'm wondering why he chose this forum.

And both you and RAM are both wrong about 300 IAS turn rate.  In this game both planes are limited by blackout and structural limitations at this speed.  If you are at the same speed and pulling the same gees... you have identical turn rate and radius.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 06-03-2000).]

Offline SnakeEyes

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place your vote... fix the turn rates in AH?
« Reply #96 on: June 03, 2000, 12:03:00 PM »
Yeah, that would be true, 'cept I have a higher G tolerance than Ram... but that isn't modeled properly.  

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SnakeEyes
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funked

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place your vote... fix the turn rates in AH?
« Reply #97 on: June 03, 2000, 12:10:00 PM »
I think this is canceled by the effect of the brilliantly-designed reclining pilot's seat in the Fw 190.  

Offline RAM

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place your vote... fix the turn rates in AH?
« Reply #98 on: June 03, 2000, 12:59:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by funked:

And both you and RAM are both wrong about 300 IAS turn rate.  In this game both planes are limited by blackout and structural limitations at this speed.  If you are at the same speed and pulling the same gees... you have identical turn rate and radius.

Yes...and no. What I mean by better turning means that when I pull high Gs at high speed Fw190 keeps speed up easily, while the rest of the planes burns it faster.

P51 is near Fw190, tho...but when I fighted in P51s I never felt that I had the same snapturn as in 190.maybe only my impression,but I fly by feelings not by numbers.



[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 06-03-2000).]

Offline wells

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place your vote... fix the turn rates in AH?
« Reply #99 on: June 03, 2000, 01:58:00 PM »
More turn data...

F4u-1C/D:

3G stall speed:  150 knts IAS (176 mph CAS, +3 knts)
Turn radius:  224m (70 degree bank)
Tested in AH: 30s @ 130 mph = 278m

3G radius corrected to 130mph/1.64G/52 degree bank = 266m
Error = 5%

P-51D:

3G stall speed: 159 mph IAS (162 mph CAS)
Turn radius:  190m (70 degree bank)
Tested in AH (75% fuel, no fuse tank):  
27s @ 150 mph = 288m

3G radius corrected for 150mph/2.57G/67 bank = 194m

Error = 48%

P-38L:

3G stall speed:  170 mph IAS (175 mph CAS)
Turn radius:  221m (70 degree bank)
Tested in AH: 26s @ 160 mph = 296m

3G radius corrected for 160 mph/2.51G/66 bank = 226m

Error = 31%

 

funked

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place your vote... fix the turn rates in AH?
« Reply #100 on: June 03, 2000, 02:09:00 PM »
Huh?  What figures come from where?  How can you predict 194 m for P-51D when P-51A did 290m with VVS?  Not sure "% Error" is the right term here, maybe "% Variation".

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 06-03-2000).]

Offline wells

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place your vote... fix the turn rates in AH?
« Reply #101 on: June 03, 2000, 02:31:00 PM »
Funked,

All 3G stall speeds come from the report of Joing Fighter Conference.  I've used the respective manuals to get instrument error where possible.  They are 'average' values obtained from reports of 28 pilots (38 in the case of the P-51).  I figured the radius from that data (sea level) and then compared to my own test flights in AH.  I was able to improve my turn performance somewhat from previous tests!    Feel free and try to get better results...

Does someone have those VVS tests handy?  How many pilots were involved and how were those radii obtained?  Are they sea level radii or 10k or what?

funked

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place your vote... fix the turn rates in AH?
« Reply #102 on: June 03, 2000, 02:51:00 PM »
OK, so you get max. lift coefficient from the Fighter Conference 3g stall speed (IAS converted to CAS) then figure out what g/radius that gives you for a turn at the AH sustained turn speed?  Correct me if I'm wrong.

I doubt I will get much different AH test results than you.  Remember I did mine at 50% fuel because that's the alleged load for the NII-VVS tests.

Wish we had more stuff on the NII-VVS tests.  Reading the Gordon/Khazanov book, it seems they did a really good job of measuring dogfighting performance parameters, instead of doing subjective comparisons like US and RAF.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 06-03-2000).]

Offline Citabria

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place your vote... fix the turn rates in AH?
« Reply #103 on: June 03, 2000, 02:55:00 PM »
wells I hope everyone is using your numbers when flying in the arena...

between starting my turns from 300mph and turns from stallfighting into the buzzer... when I'm turning I'm never turning as slow as those numbers.

I guess everyone else is. maybe thats why they are so easy to kill.
Fester was my in game name until September 2013

Offline Citabria

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place your vote... fix the turn rates in AH?
« Reply #104 on: June 03, 2000, 03:04:00 PM »
 
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Good post Frenchy, very true. There are so many factors involved, that all you can hope for is a good general degree of accuracy. Even in test reports you see this. I used to be wowed by seemingly conclusive evidence and thought I had the answers. You get one good report and think you have the answers. Get two good reports on the same plane and suddenly your answers have become questions again.
But without knowing specifics, things can vary tremendously just based on a few details. Planes are different, pilots are different, weights and power settings need to be known, is atmospheric conditions corrected to standard atmosphere, is indicated airspeed corrected to CAS, etc.

Planes also have personalities as I'm sure you know. Some are hangar queens, always breaking down, can barely make power, etc. and some are the complete opposite.
-Pyro
Fester was my in game name until September 2013