Author Topic: Best Japanese Fighter  (Read 2853 times)

Offline 28sweep

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Best Japanese Fighter
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2002, 07:09:04 AM »
I may be hijacking my own thread but I got a question that is related and I cannot answer.  Ok, If B&Z is truly better way to fight and if speed is the dominate feature and  let's say that Japanese were wrong for "holding on" to this failed stategy then the Brit's were/are also wrong right?  Spits, Hurricanes are not B&Z or E-fighters.  Also, the Brits love their Harriers even today and they spanked the Mirage fighters in the Faulkins right.  The Mirage fighters are E or B&Z and the Harriers are the ultimate turn & burn fighters...how did they manage it then?  Also, the Brits seem to think that vectored thrust tech. is very important  and have been investing a lot in the JSF.  Just a question?

Offline poppysead

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Ah good point
« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2002, 07:35:40 AM »
Ok compairing the zeke to the spit is a pretty good point but emagine that the germans had an aircraft along the likes of the p38, p47, p51. simply put it's hard buisness to boom and zoom in a 109, especialy when at hi speeds the 109 starts losing things like roll ability, tails, wings, etc. The enemy has to be taken into account when tactics comes to mind, perhaps you mistakenly believe I meant that BandZ is the BEST tactic, this truly isnt the case in every situation.
And your coment on the faulklins, well simply put, im not a jet jockey I wasnt even speaking in terms of modern warfare. Missiles and pilot training had alot more to do with the mirrage getting blasted out of the sky than speed. Lets think, today yah turning ability is important, on the same line it helps that the harrier can spin those engine exhausts down and tighten up there turns. but im not refering to modern warfare again were talking ww2,,, right? ummm guys? Is this the f15/ Av-8 forum guys......?

Offline Upchuck

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There's more to a plane than numbers...
« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2002, 07:45:47 AM »
I think the difference, 28sweep is the pilot.  Not that Allied pilots are inherently better because of the side they're on, but maybe they're better trained.  

A case in point...
I can't remember the reference, but I remember reading something about the differences in training and fighting style between IJN and Allied pilots that helped turned the tide as well.  Apparently many Zeke pilots had the radios taken out of their planes to save even more weight (a high power long range transmitter was no small thing in the '40's).  Now, you'd think a radio was kind of important for communication between pilots, especially wingies in BnZ or other cooperative tactics.  But IJN training focused on the individual pilot fighting one enemy at a time, sort of the epitome of the individualistic Samurai philosophy, which minimized the need for comms, where Allied pilots were trained to fight cooperatively.

Now, in a small furball the IJN might have an advantage, but as the number of planes engaged increases the chances for poor SA increase also, as do the opportunities for cooperative BnZ tactics.  Hence the Allies have the advantage.

As the war wore on the loss of experienced IJN pilots incrementally decreased the experience of their fighter wings, where the Allied pilots were better suited to learn from the experiences of the veterans and keep more pilots alive, rather than have each pilot have to learn from his mistakes, which were often fatal.

I think the basic point of pilot quality could also hold true for your question about the Harriers and Mirage's in the Falklands.

Offline 28sweep

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« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2002, 08:12:11 AM »
I think you just can't write off the Argintine pilots.  I've heard that they weren't all that bad and in fact some of them where darn good.  We're not talking Iraq here....much much better than that.  The USAF-PoppySead-agrees w/u even up until this moment and believes that speed rules.  The Brits. still learn towards manuvering and low/wing loading or vectored thrust and have been VERY successful.  This tradition goes back to WWII and maybe before.  Look at the USAF fighters: P-47, P-51, F-105, F-4, F-15, F-18 etc (F-16 may be the only execption).  My point is-is that the USAF putts "all it's eggs in the Speed basket" while other AirForces-like the Brits. lean the other way and at least strike a better balance.  Who's right??????

Offline Bombjack

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« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2002, 08:40:58 AM »
28sweep, the US employs aircraft across the range of capabilities and has plenty of dogfighters in its stable. The UK can't afford that kind of capability - the Harrier was conceived as a close support aircraft, the Sea Harrier for use off pocket carriers. The only 'proper' A2A role aircraft in UK service is the Tornado ADV, which has speed and nothing else. Our current forces are basically obsolescent.

JSF will hopefully provide the RN a modern multirole capability, while the Typhoon should be a very handy toy for the RAF. Not before time.

Offline Red Tail 444

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Re: There's more to a plane than numbers...
« Reply #35 on: July 17, 2002, 08:44:20 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Upchuck
.

the loss of experienced IJN pilots incrementally decreased the experience of their fighter wings


I didn't know about the radio, but yes, IJN lost many many experienced pilots, mostly at Midway, on deck, for the most part, and I do remember hearing that they had but did not to wear parachutes, as the cockpits were so small (in the zeke)according to Saburo Sakai. A must read, IMO :) Anyone else hear this?

The zeke gets my SA up to the "perked ride" Level, b/c everyone wants a piece of it, and you gotta keep your head on a swivel. I wish I could be this attentive in regular rides!

BTW Mitsu, your English is better than a lot of Americans. Don't sweat it! .

Ki or Zeke? Tough call for me...but I'm STILL anticipating the Raiden, which I have always wanted to fly, so I guess I need to withold my decision till we can get all of them in AH!

Great Thread, everyone :)

Gainsie


Offline Red Tail 444

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Re: Old Poll...
« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2002, 10:28:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mitsu
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=43129&highlight=Japanese+fighter+poll


Well apparently, HTC either didnt pay attention to the post, or never read it IMO. Every other plane, save one, was voted higher than the early war zeke...:mad: :confused:

Dare I ask the obvious question?

Gainsie

Offline whgates3

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« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2002, 03:40:29 AM »
IMHO the most important quality in modern fighters is not speed or maneuverablility, but the quality of weapons carried.  Most modern fighters dont usually carry foward firing guns, but computer/sensor guided munitions

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2002, 05:59:23 AM »
Quote
Ok, If B&Z is truly better way to fight and if speed is the dominate feature and let's say that Japanese were wrong for "holding on" to this failed stategy then the Brit's were/are also wrong right? Spits, Hurricanes are not B&Z or E-fighters.


 Excellent question, 28sweep. One answer to that question is that the Spitfire was a very very capable plane in almost all aspects, not just in the horizontal plane, but also in the vertical. Compared with it's main rival - the Bf109 series - which is simular in many ways as to the fact that it was a plane designed in the 1930s and kept its 'originality' throughout the war by wide variety of evolution and adaptation, the Spit series were in fact not that inferior in BnZ performance.

 The image of the Spitfire being a "TnB" plane is a popular misconception, because people compare the Spit5 or the Spit9 with late war monsters like the La-7, Bf109G-10, Yak-9U or the P-51D. When you compare it according to its adversaries of the same era - the SpitMkI to 109E-4, SpitMkV to 109F-4, and the SpitMkIX to the 190A-5 and the Bf109G-6 - you may well very notice that it is a close call. "BnZ" is a tactic that was to be carried out 'before' the battle began, not a tactic that could be applied after that. (The occasions we see in AH, ie. a Bf109G-10 comfortably gaining a huge altitude advantage even after it was bounced by a SpitMkIX, is only possible in AH conditions where a 1944 plane meets a 1942 plane) This is a bit different when we look at the Pacific theater. While the 109s and Spitfires were almost always closely matched in performance, the A6M5b which began service in 1943 was still doing only about 350~360mph, when USN Corsairs were breaking the 400mph.
 
 Another reason is the two important attributes - speed and maneuverability - were not always mutually incompatible. While it is true in most cases that speed is more important than maneuverability, and strengthening the speed often came from the sacrifice of maneuverability, there were rare cases where speed and maneuverabilty didn't necessarily cancel each other out. The Spitfires were one of those rare cases where a plane could become faster and still retain much of its maneuverability. Therefore, the Spitfire cannot be called a 'mistake', rather, it was undoubtably an excellent choice. (If the RAF held on to the Hurricane as the main fighter for A2A purposes, THAT would have been a mistake)

 Third reason is that the so called "BnZ" tactics were effective only in firmly disciplined situations. There would be many types of situations concerning air combat, and "BnZ" tactics can be utilized only when one side enters the combat area with a decisive alt advantage. In co-alt situations, the better maneuvering plane has the first immediate advantage. Since Spitfires of the ETO were not vastly inferior in speed or climb rates to their German adversaries of the same era, the maneuverabilty in this case became a huge advantage. Zekes, on the other hand, were vastly inferior in the speed category. The advantage in maneuverability was not enough to overcome the disadvantage in speed.

 The reason "BnZ" is the wiser tactic, is because altitude advantage can put even the most inferior pilot in to an offensive. The most important factor is no doubt pilot skills, but this is something which is innate and cannot be objectively measured. (Besides, the super-aces, or elite squads are always a handful. 90% of pilots in all countries are in the same 'average' category) Therefore, deploying a tactic which predetermines the outcome before the battle even begins, is ofcourse, the best one there is.

 Remember the old motto: "Provided two opponents are in simular skill level, the one with alt advantage may not be able to win, but at least he will never lose" .. and what can be more imortant than that in a war? ;)

Offline 28sweep

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« Reply #40 on: July 18, 2002, 07:17:48 AM »
Thanks Kweassa that makes a lot of sense.  So it's a fact then that B&Z or energy fighting is a superior way to fight...right?  So can you say that "on average"...if pilot skill is equal-that the B&Z pilot should win more often.  I would like somebody to comment on contemporary fighter design though.  I know for a fact that:

1) The "Aggressor" squadron in "Top Gun" flie(s) the A-4 skyhawk and they most often fight the F-18, or F-14.  Both the F-18 and F-14 have a "double" speed advantage yet the "Aggressor" pilots routinely win.  How is that possible?  Can pilot skill alone negate a double speed advantage?

2) The whole world is embracing vectored thrust technology.  In fact, the USAF could not develop the technology on it's own fast enough so they simply bought it from the Russian's.  It will appear on the JSF and F-22 of course.  I know that when used-a HUGE Energy penalty is incurred.  So you can't simply say that vectored thrust gives a B&Z plane a turning capability right...without a downside anyway?  Why bother then if speed is truly "king?"  Why spend all of this money and rush in a new technology rather than simply try and develop faster aircraft?

Offline Vermillion

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« Reply #41 on: July 18, 2002, 08:05:59 AM »
Quote
Also, the Brits love their Harriers even today and they spanked the Mirage fighters in the Faulkins right. The Mirage fighters are E or B&Z and the Harriers are the ultimate turn & burn fighters...how did they manage it then?


Well... its a very complex situation involving many factors.

For one, your not talking a guns only environment without radar, where blind siding an enemy with hit and run tactics reign supreme.

The Argentines made many mistakes.

The first being that they never expected for the British to contest the invasion of the island and they were not prepared.  Their airfields were far from the combat and they did not have sufficent (ie almost none) air to air refueling capabilities to support offensive operations.  Most Argentinian pilots were more worried about having enough fuel to get home, let alone to be agressive in their tactics and push the fight to the British.

Secondly, their tactics were abysmal.  They sent their units into combat in small dribs and drabs, never concentrating their superior numbers, and allowing them to shatter the British defensive capabilities.

Technology.  One very important issue was that the British harriers were equipped with modern all aspect heat seekers, while the Argentines were limited to 1960's era 30 degree rear aspect missles, both radar and IR.

Ground Support (or in this case sea support).  The British fought their battles within the radar and SAM envelopes of their task forces.  In fact, in the early combats the Argentine Mirages came to the fight at high altitudes where they held the performance advantages.  The British harriers very intelligently stayed at middle to lower altitudes, where they were supported by the surface ships, knowing the Mirages didn't have the fuel to stay up there all day.

The Exocet missle.  The Argentines, had only received something like 4-6 missles total from the French before the conflict began, and they were cut off further shipments.  Plus, their pilots were insufficently trained in their use as it was a new weapon to them.  Even so, these missles almost turned the tide of the fight, seriously punishing the British Task Forces.  Once these were exhausted, the Argentines without the use of modern sea skimming missles were reduced to low level bombing attacks on the British sea forces with A4 SkyHawks using unguided bombs, where they took heavy losses.  They also had a technical problem with their fuses, such that many of the ships they did hit, took only minor damage because the bombs never exploded.

So the whole Argentine Mirages vs British Harriers is not a good example in this case, there were many factors involved. :)

Offline Sundog

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« Reply #42 on: July 18, 2002, 04:18:43 PM »
As for the best Japanese fighter, it depends on who you ask, to a certain extent I think the Ki-44 Shoki (Tojo) was their best fighter of the war and it could have had a huge impact on the outcome, but the Japanese leaders, with regard to aircraft types, felt that turning ability was the most important aspect for a fighter to have. Therefore, they didn't build the Ki-44 in as large of quntities as the Zeke or Oscar. According to my sources, they did not trust the Ki-44's high wing loading, relatively speaking to most other Japanese fighters of the time, with regard to fighter vs. fighter combat. They built it as an interceptor, but the pilots who knew how to fly it well could give western fighters, including P-51s a run for their money. In fact, I am pretty sure that Ki-44s scored the last kill of the war when they downed a B-32 after the surrender, but I will have to check.

Another excellent interceptor was the J2M3 and J2M5 Raiden (Jack). Overall, the Ki-84 was far and away their best, performance wise, overall fighter produced during the war. Everything I have read about these aircraft being test flown by the U.S. indicates they were great planes to fly, but that being somewhat subjective, I wish they would have provided the data that resulted from these test flights to explain why they 'felt' that way.

As for the A7M, my understanding of that program was that it originally had the more powerful engine, then they switched to the smaller engine which had a ton of problems, and they then decided to return to the larger engine, but it was too late for that aircraft when they finally decided to go back to the larger engine.

I would still like to see the Ki-44 in AH though, as it was used much earlier in the war than the J2M3 and Ki-84 (obviously) and had comparable performance to western aircraft and saw action throughout the Asian mainland, which would be really helpful for scenario's, ToD's, etc. Then, the Ki-84 would make a good Japanese perk plane.

You can find alot of good info here:  Japanese Aviation and also here J-Aircaft.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2002, 04:24:25 PM by Sundog »

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #43 on: July 18, 2002, 04:57:18 PM »
Sundog,

Why would the Ki-84 be perked?

I'd like to know why people think that it is perk worthy.
  • It can't be numbers, 3,500 were built.
  • It can't be speed as it could only do about 400mph.
  • It can't be climb rate as its initial climb is only about 3,500ft per minute.
  • It can't be service entry as the test squads had it in late 1943 and it was in main line use by early 1944.
  • It can't be armament as it has a nearly identical armament to the Ki-61-I-KAIc that we have in AH right now.

I just don't see where the "Ki-84 is a good Japanese perk plane" comes from.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2002, 05:00:19 PM by Karnak »
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Offline whgates3

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« Reply #44 on: July 18, 2002, 05:31:15 PM »
bet a Ki-44 w/ the 2 x 20mm + 2 x 37mm weapons took out a B-17 plenty quick