Author Topic: Coup de grace (Read 1047 times)

LoneStarBuckeye · « **on:** July 17, 2002, 10:10:50 AM »

The last couple of nights I have been flying base defense for some great furballing action. On several occassions, however, I encountered something that has me stumped.

A general description of what happened is that I take off in a Spit IX/V, manage to get some altitude and/or speed and look for bogeys. I engage an P51/P47/F4U/F6F/F4F/109 that has gotten too low and slow for its own good. After a few high yo-yos or lag rolls, I am locked onto the bogey's tail and he has no more energy to maneuver. I am comfortably in my maneuvering range (i.e., ~225-250 mph IAS) with a full load of cannon. Now I am by no means a great shot, but even I should kill this guy 80-90% of the time.

What happens next is the con begins a series of crazy maneuvers (not a classic scissors maneuver that one typically sees from 190s) that I can only describe as random rolls, pulls, and partial barrel rolls. I have no problem staying behind his 3/9 line, using a combination of following his maneuvers and simply climbing to prevent overshooting. The problem is that I simply cannot hit the con from point-blank range (i.e., 100 m). Obviously when a con is maneuvering like that, you are going to have to pick your shots, but even waiting to fire until I seemed to have a perfect firing solution (i.e., proper amount of lead, based on what appears to be the con's velocity vector), I consistently missed.

I have a few questions about what I have just described:

1. What are these bogeys doing? When I am in their position (i.e., low and slow with a more or equally maneuverable plane on my six), I almost always die and can never make enemies miss, at least not for very long, even when I think I am maneuvering radically.

My best guess is that their fuselage line is "lying." In other words, the are using a great deal of rudder to induce slipping or skidding so that the directions that they are actually traveling are nowhere near where their noses are pointing. I understand why that would work in skewing an attacker's aim, but when I try to do this, it never does (read: I die). If anyone is adept at this, I would really like to hear an explanation.

2. As a plane in my position (i.e., the attacker), how do you kill a plane that is maneuvering like this? In a one-on-one scenario, I would simply climb above the bogey, waiting for him to either auger or expend all of his energy. However, in a massive furball, that just means abandoning the kill. I have seen other pilots kill these guys after I have either run out of ammo or pulled out, so I know it can be done

Thanks in advance for your insights and advice!

- JNOV

humble · « **Reply #1 on:** July 17, 2002, 11:37:24 AM »

couple of comments:

1) it sounds like the cons are "flopping". This is usually from stick stirring but some can really just juke around that well. If your range is that minimal you'll have a tough time hitting if your flying in reactive mode.

2) Many of the planes will roll faster than can...also lag can be an issue. I'd recomend letting range open just a bit...150-250 is ideal for me. Use your 50 cal (or .303) to herd the con and try and anticipate his move a bit (he can only do one of three things...straight (with/without vert) or left or right with same. he'll roll faster but you'll easily out turn him

3) another option is to use rudder to swing nose back and forth a bit and spray mg's to get him to break hard.

4) fly straight...dont follow his every move...I'm amazed how often you can fly behind a scissoring/juking bogie and hammer him as he fly's back and forth thru your flight line

bozon · « **Reply #2 on:** July 17, 2002, 08:48:35 PM »

I've seen this done hundreds of times. the 190 excells at this, since his roll-rate and insta turn are so fast that combined with net-lag it creates micro warps.

the best solution is the one described above. but it means slowing down.
your actuall chanse of killing him without parking behind him, is directly proportional to your willingness of expending ammo. if he tries this vs a nik, he's just going to get his bellybutton sprayed with lots of 20mm that some are bound to hit. if your fly a yak or 109 and dont want to make this a one kill sortie, it's going to be tougher.

Bozon

F4UDOA · « **Reply #3 on:** July 17, 2002, 11:06:04 PM »

Heya,

Not that I'm in the habit of telling Spit drivers how to kill me but I will say this....

With the exception of the FW190 the F4U is probably the best rolling A/C in AH throughout the speed range and also the one I am usually in. It also has the sometimes good, sometimes bad habit of loosing E rather quickly in a turn. When ever I get an angry Spit driver behind me with an E advantage I do what you describe, which is use a hard scissoring(sp) movement with as little rudder as possibleor sometimes more of a half barrel roll. Most Spit drivers believe because they can out turn me that this works for them. As long as they are faster than me it does not. They will usually overshoot within a couple turns. If they chop throttle it would make it much harder for me to escape this way but most do not.

The other part of this is your own rudder control. Sometimes when I saddle up on a foe and I am in a rush to finish him off (usually when he is trying to kill one of my squadies) I often can't seem to hit what seems to be right in front of me. Why? Because in my haste I am twisting my own rudder control causing my aim to be off and even worse the occasional stall. Solution? Dampen your rudder control. It helps allot.

Lastly those peskie FW190 drivers. I have chased them from 20K to the deck as they flip and flop like a beached haddock. All I can say is be patient and make them bleed there E until they stall. Then swat them out like flys.

gofaster · « **Reply #4 on:** July 18, 2002, 08:24:52 AM »

I've been in that situation - too close to the bandit to get a hit. I attribute it to the location of my guns: guns in the nose will shoot straight and you can hit the guy under 150 range, but guns in the wings will fly past him because they're passing on either side of his fuselage and over the tops of his wings on their way to the convergence point another 200 or so beyond him.

But that's just my theory.

LoneStarBuckeye · « **Reply #5 on:** July 18, 2002, 09:28:59 AM »

Thanks for the advice, guys.

F4: I haven't had any problem staying behind the cons, my problem has been hitting them. I think that your observation about my own rudder input skewing my aim is part of the problem, however.

Gofaster: Interesting point about convergence. I have mine set at about 400, so for close in cons, I think I need to lead even more than I think, due to the vertical aspect of convergence. The guns are physically located below the sight, so at a range of 100m, the shells have only "climbed" about 1/4 of the way to the convergence point. It would be interesting to know exactly what the vertical offset (between the guns and the sight) is, so I would know how much of a factor this is.

Humble: I've tried just flying straight and trying to smack the cons as they fly across my sight. Sometimes that works well. The problem is that I can only fly straight for a short period of time without overshooting. I think what I'll try is to maintain a roughly constant heading and maneuver mainly vertically to prevent overshoot. This probably makes sense from an energy perspective anyhow.

Bozon: Most 190 drivers I've seem to use a classic scissors, which I don't even try to follow in most other planes. Instead, I will just pull up over the 190 and re-engage when he has bled his e. If I lose the kill, either because I cannot catch him or because someone else gets him, so be it. I have also seen the microwarps you describe, but that is not what was happening in the cases that I tried to describe in my original post.

Thanks again!

- JNOV

Vermillion · « **Reply #6 on:** July 18, 2002, 10:37:44 AM »

400 yards is way too far a convergence setting. Period.

What happens is if guns are set at 400 and your firing at his direct tail with your sight at 200, your shots are literally passing him on each side of the fuselage. Combine the sight/gun offset problem with a hard jinking con with a marginal connect, and your never gonna hit him.

I see this problem from Spitfires all the time. They think they can get kills out to 600-800 yards, but its just a waste of ammo.

My suggestion is this. Pick a maximum distance you think you can kill at. For me its 400-450 yards. But lets pick 500 for this example. Set your convergence to one half of that maximum distance. For this example it would be 250 yards. So your guns are maximized roughly for 125 yards to 375 yards.

Most of your shots should be within 100-300 yards of distance, anything more and your just wasting ammo. ESPECIALLY shooting at a manuevering target beyond 500. And if you setup your guns to fire for those long distance shots (which are unrealistic anyways) its also going to screw up your close range shooting.

LoneStarBuckeye · « **Reply #7 on:** July 18, 2002, 12:22:42 PM »

Vermillion:

Sounds like great advice. I've made the mistake of setting my convergence to what I consider to be my maximum kill range with a particular plane's gun set. Reading your post, I realize that is ill-advised. Thanks.

guttboy · « **Reply #8 on:** July 18, 2002, 01:27:44 PM »

Lonestar,

I feel your pain on the jinking bogey...I myself do the same thing (jinking) and it frustrates the hell out of spit drivers. If you are on the defensive in this position DONT BE PREDICTABLE!

If I find myself with a bogey doing the same thing ....PATIENCE....sooner or later he will be predictable hopefully and you will shwack him.

Flying the plane out of trim....I personally do this ALL the time. Some of the aces in WW2 used this technique quite well. I doubt that most people fly this way but I do and it seems to work for me...maybe its psychological but I think it works.

FWIW

humble · « **Reply #9 on:** July 18, 2002, 02:01:16 PM »

Sounds like you have a e management issue here as well, this gets into the Andy Bush school of BFM...you need to optimize your positive E state as you transition from the "middle game" to the "end Game". The porpose of a positive E state is to enable either escape...or provide the capability to "saddle up" on a target. Carrying to much E into the endgame can defeat your own guns solution. I think your chasing a snapshot, start thinking tracking shot and you kill a lot more cons.

Zaphod · « **Reply #10 on:** July 18, 2002, 02:40:50 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Vermillion
400 yards is way too far a convergence setting. Period.

What happens is if guns are set at 400 and your firing at his direct tail with your sight at 200, your shots are literally passing him on each side of the fuselage. Combine the sight/gun offset problem with a hard jinking con with a marginal connect, and your never gonna hit him.

I see this problem from Spitfires all the time. They think they can get kills out to 600-800 yards, but its just a waste of ammo.

My suggestion is this. Pick a maximum distance you think you can kill at. For me its 400-450 yards. But lets pick 500 for this example. Set your convergence to one half of that maximum distance. For this example it would be 250 yards. So your guns are maximized roughly for 125 yards to 375 yards.

Most of your shots should be within 100-300 yards of distance, anything more and your just wasting ammo. ESPECIALLY shooting at a manuevering target beyond 500. And if you setup your guns to fire for those long distance shots (which are unrealistic anyways) its also going to screw up your close range shooting.

I agree with vermillion on convergence......with regards to the spit or other turnfighter type planes. Sometimes convergence can be set at 400 or even further. However you must set convergence to cause max damage at the average distance you typically shoot .... for each plane (sorta what vermillion is saying). For example in the Spit you are most likely to be engaged at relatively short distances, you also have a limited clip on the cannons. For this plane 250 is great, you are effective out to 500 and as close at 100 or so. However in a plane with which you would normally shoot at longer distances you would push the convergence out a bit. I like 375 in a mustang since I don't normally get in close with that plane (gotta get way too slow and throw away one of the mustangs biggest advantages...speed). Convergence is also based on wing or nose mounted guns, weapon effectiveness at range and bullet drop. German cannons for example drop quite a bit and so I keep convergence in around 325 or so for them. U.S. 50 cals fly straight and true for a long distance and are much easier to hit with at longer ranges, hence the mustang's longer convergence. One other thing that helps maximize damage is to set all guns to the same convergence (real important in mg armed planes) rather than stepping them (225,250,275). The trick is to figure out what the average distance is that you normally find yourself in while firing on a plane, keeping all of those other factors in mind and use that to set your convergence. Of course one real important issue is.....can you hit past a certain range (including high deflection snap shots which are common in rides that depend on speed rather than turning ability). There are a few virtual pilots who can reliably hit out at 600 yards (non-sprayers) but that's the exception rather than the rule.

Zaphod

LoneStarBuckeye · « **Reply #11 on:** July 18, 2002, 03:17:55 PM »

More great responses -- thanks!

Humble: You are right, I really am thinking snap shot rather than tracking shot. The reason for this is that I want to maintain as much energy as possible, because this is happening in the midst of a massive furball over a CAP'd base. I agree that transitioning to an "end-game" energy level would make it easier to find a tracking solution, but in this case I'm not so sure it makes sense. Indeed, I am conserving energy to "escape" -- not from the con I'm trailing but from the 40 other enemies just waiting to pounce on my low and slow plane.

Blank · « **Reply #12 on:** July 18, 2002, 09:28:13 PM »

Also Lonestar, there is the '.target xxx' (xxx=distance) command.

I've thrown together a demo using the 109 g10 with gondolas as an example. - as I cant fly as i'm suffering terrible CTD's since old maps came back

A: convergence 20mm = 300
convergence 30mm = 300
target range = 300

nice grouped shots

B: convergence 20mm = 300
convergence 30mm = 300
target range = 600

you can see 30mm drops off due to weight/velocity

C: convergence 20mm = 300
convergence 30mm = 650
target range = 600

the increase in elevation of the nose mounted 30mm brings it back into the center of the grouping and you still get a similar grouping to A when target is 300.

D: convergence 20mm = 300
convergence 30mm = 650
target range = 100

you can see a big 'dead gap' in the middle

E: convergence 20mm = 500
convergence 30mm = 500
target range = 100

I've set the guns to what i consider there max killing range see the HUGE gap between bullet streams at 100yardsI

F: shows the size of a mustang at 100yards relative to the gunsite.

the Using the .target command can tell you alot about your bullet stream spacing/drop/grouping and is a useful tool to help you increase you kills.
It helped me l to find out where all my 30mm were going and adjust my convergence accordingly thus increasing kills.

LoneStarBuckeye · « **Reply #13 on:** July 18, 2002, 09:32:49 PM »

Blank: Really excellent example! Thanks for taking the time! It makes the point unmistakably well.

- JNOV

MJHerman · « **Reply #14 on:** July 19, 2002, 01:31:09 PM »

Great info guys, but I don't know if any of it would have helped me in a fight that I had with a Jug last night.

Situation is: Con is a Jug down on the deck, my Pony maybe 3K to 4K above. Dive in for the usual boom and zoom, with far to much speed, but I bleed it off well enough to tag the Jug a couple of times, not enough to kill him (result of my poor gunnery to begin with, at least since release of 1.10).

The Jug then starts flopping around at maybe 1,000 feet of the deck. He goes straight up, stalls, recovers, then back straight up, stalls, recovers, etc. He must have repeated it 3 or 4 times, all in the vertical (i.e., no lateral evasion other than rolling). I'm following him waiting for him to auger out on his stalls, but it never happens. A friendly caught him with a shot and put him down, but what I can't understand is how in the world a Jug had any power on the deck to be flopping around like that without planting his big radial nose into the sea. From my experience, a Jug just doesn't have that kind of power down low.

Plus, the Pony just can't stay with that kind of con down lown or it stalls out. Wouldn't the Jug have even more of a problem?