Author Topic: Tony Williams, how is armor penetration determined?  (Read 255 times)

Offline Karnak

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Tony Williams, how is armor penetration determined?
« on: July 15, 2002, 10:12:48 PM »
Tony,

The armor pentration of WWII guns comes up on this board with some frequency, particularly in reference to the effectiveness against tanks.

What I am wondering is when a round is said to have, for arguments sake say, 15mm of penetration at a 45 degree impact is that a maximum penetration, an average penetration or a pretty reliably reproducable pentration?

The reason that I ask is this, if that is a maximum that is only obtained infrequently and this game is using these numbers as the standard penetration it would have a major, major effect on how effective the aircraft are against tanks in the game.

I know you don't play this game, but knowledge of the game isn't required to answer this question.

Thanks.
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Offline SKurj

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Tony Williams, how is armor penetration determined?
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2002, 11:04:48 PM »
eeewww not exactly an easy one to answer...


Different countries used different methods to determine penetration....

I used to have a link to a sight that explained it all...

this link doesn't work...
http://www.wargamer.org/GvA/index.html
does anyone know what happened to this page?
it was probably the most complete list I ever saw.


SKurj

Offline Shiva

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Tony Williams, how is armor penetration determined?
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2002, 11:05:32 PM »
In most cases, penetration is given as a theoretical value -- i.e., under ideal conditions -- so the actual penetration will always be less than that value.

Offline SKurj

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Tony Williams, how is armor penetration determined?
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2002, 11:12:28 PM »
it wasn't theory....

I did some research back when ww2ol was released...

tests were done, some countries called "penetration" when a round went right through, others when a round at least punctured the plate.  Also ... not all shots would meet this 'penetration' point.. but if 1 in 4 did (an example) ...
a certain percentage of rounds fired had to meet the penetration point as well.

And then there is the armor being used... in ww2 everyone didn't use a standard steel to test with..

And then of course it comes down to just accepting the numbers in some cases because tests were not run after the war and 'their' numbers had to be accepted..

SKurj

Offline Tony Williams

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Tony Williams, how is armor penetration determined?
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2002, 01:49:32 AM »
Agree with SKurj - the different standards operating in countries make cross-national comparisons very difficult to make. The British, for example, required 70% of shots to pass right through a target of a given thickness and quality at a particular striking angle before this thickness could be approved as its "penetration". Others used different standards.

Occasionally, some countries would put their guns side-by-side with the enemy's for a comparison test, and then the differences in standards become clear, with big differences in penetration of the same weapon and ammo being recorded.

You will also get freak incidents if you fire enough ammo at something. A .50 bullet wouldn't penetrate a 1944 Panzer tank, but it might slip in through an engine grille or aperture, knock out a track pin etc.

When fired against aircraft armour, you also need to remember that AP bullets had to work their way through the aircraft's skin and maybe structural elements before even reaching the armour, and by then they may have been knocked sideways, greatly reducing penetration.

An interesting subject I have spent some time researching, but the more you look into it, the more complicated the answers become.

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Military gun and ammunition discussion forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

Offline Naudet

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Tony Williams, how is armor penetration determined?
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2002, 03:25:58 AM »
Tony, i know that the german LW did a real huge test with most of all WW2 aircraft guns.

It covered everything from 7,9mms MGs to 30mm Cannons, german, american, british, russian, and italian.

This test was done under the same conditions for every gun. This might be a good basis for gun comparison, expecially as there was a "specialized" test were a round 1st had to penetrat a standard plane skin and than it's power 1.5 Meter behind that skin was measured.

I saw the charts, they come from Germanys National Archive Freiburg.
A friend owns them, but as always with Freiburg documents, he is not allowed to publish or copy them. :(

Offline Tony Williams

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Tony Williams, how is armor penetration determined?
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2002, 06:09:46 AM »
I have some of this information, Naudet - quite comprehensive in the case of the German weapons, with just a few details concerning their tests of foreign weapons.

I appreciate that the documents may not be copied, but some data from them would be interesting ;)

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Military gun and ammunition discussion forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

Offline Naudet

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Tony Williams, how is armor penetration determined?
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2002, 06:44:11 AM »
The problem is the charts are with a friend in Kaiserslautern and i am in Aachen. That are 350km distance and with the gasoline prizes in germany a poor student like me can't afford that to often.

Offline mauser

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Tony Williams, how is armor penetration determined?
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2002, 11:56:58 AM »
Good thread :)  

Skurj, I have two links to two different versions of that website, but they're at home.  It'll be about 8 hrs before I get back to find it and post them, but I will.  That was a great website... the most interesting was the section on penetration mechanics.  However, only one of the versions remaining have that section, and it seems to be missing from the new site that has it :(

There is a small handbook-style publication on penetration data of WWII munitions, but I don't know the link off the top of my head.  

mauser

Offline Karnak

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Tony Williams, how is armor penetration determined?
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2002, 08:06:53 PM »
Thanks for the response Tony, all.

I'm just trying to figure out why straffing is so much more effective as modeled in AH than it was in reality.  HiTech seems very sure that his calculations are correct, so I was thinking there might be an error in the data that the calculations are based on.
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Offline mauser

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Tony Williams, how is armor penetration determined?
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2002, 11:41:11 PM »
Ok, here are the links:

http://www.freeweb.hu/gva/index.html
http://web1.archive.org/web/20010602033500/www.wargamer.org/GvA/index.html

The second one has a "Background Info" section that has a section "Penetration of Armor" that leads to "The Mechanism of Plate Penetration and Failure," but the document is still missing :(

I don't know why the original wargamer.org site was shut down, I read on another BBS that it was possibly because they were going to publish in print.  

I found that handbook that I was referring to.  Look here:
http://www.angelraybooks.com/books/hw/0017hw.htm

It looks to be an excellent source by the description, but I don't have it myself so I don't know for sure.  

mauser

Offline Tony Williams

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Tony Williams, how is armor penetration determined?
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2002, 12:41:50 AM »
"Bring a 1944 Yamato Class BB led BB Task Force suported by a Takao Class CA and four Fubuki Class DDs to Aces High!!!

Karnak
Dragon Hawks"

No worries - the .50 cal would shoot them straight out of the sky :D

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Discussion forum at: http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

Offline Shiva

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Tony Williams, how is armor penetration determined?
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2002, 08:33:27 AM »
Quote
The second one has a "Background Info" section that has a section "Penetration of Armor" that leads to "The Mechanism of Plate Penetration and Failure," but the document is still missing


There is an extensive discussion about the mechanism of armor penetration in R.M. Ogorkiewicz's book The Design and Development of Armored Fighting Vehicles, 1916-1969 (the date range may be inaccurate, but the rest of the title is correct). The penetration equation, IIRC, turns out to be somewhere between the shell pushing the armor sideways out of its way and pushing a cylinder of armor put ahead of it.

You might also want to look at the
Nathan Ogun Naval Gun and Armor Data Resource pages, which has some data on penetration calculations.

Offline mauser

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Tony Williams, how is armor penetration determined?
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2002, 11:56:53 AM »
Thank you Shiva.  I was considering putting in Nathan Okun's link also but you beat me to it :)

mauser