Author Topic: New bombers system - Some observations and an opinion (Read 193 times)

Chairboy · « **on:** July 22, 2002, 03:15:43 PM »

Hello fellow flyers,

I understand that the subject of the new bombing system is a bit controversial, so I will do my best to avoid whining.

I wish to make an observation: It seems that almost any time someone posts to the BBS about how they dislike the new bombing system or how they can't get it to work, someone else responds saying something to the effect of 'it works fine for me, just practice'. So far, this is expected, but I am troubled to say I think that there may be a certain amount of untruthfulness in some of these posts.

Please, before disregarding this as a troll, give me a little latitude to clarify my position.

On the few occasions that I looked them up, the posters claiming that they bomb just fine w/ the new system have had stats that indicated they flew few if any bomber missions at all. There have been a couple of public 'gotchas' in this regard, so I won't rub noses in it. One of them claimed that he had learned offline or in the training arena, and I'm willing to accept that as possible, but there have been others here and in the game that have made the same claims but shown the same dearth of bomber sorties. The evidence suggests, as the bard may have paraphrased, that "there's something rotten in AKDesert". If they were all telling the truth, the training arena would have many more then 5 people in it at any time.

I wish, therefor, to suggest that enough people have been posting with an agenda to support the current bomber system not because they felt it could be, in the words of one of the offenders, 'just as accurate with enough practice', but instead because it reduces the effectiveness of bombers, fulfilling a mission of those who refer to bombers as 'fluffers' and complain because the bombers interfere with their furballing. I'd like to anticipate one response by saying that there's nothing wrong w/ furballing, I like to do it too, I'm just suggesting that there are players who will say anything to reduce the usefulness of bombers, even lie that "I bomb just as great now as I did before, because I practiced!"

Perhaps I should don an asbestos suit, I'm certain this will inspire some heat.

For the record, I have learned to use the new system. There are elements to it I dislike, such as the ridiculous 3x cost to use a formation of Arados that are, at best, 1/2 as effective as a group then a single Arado under the old system. There are also things I like, such as carpet bombing GVs or strat targets (even though the latter has no measurable effect on gameplay). The new system is NOT as useful as the old, and I urge some truth in advertising. The skies are empty of bombers compared to pre-1.10.

AKDejaVu · « **Reply #1 on:** July 22, 2002, 03:25:39 PM »

The rash of complaints seems to stemm from the fact that bombers became more difficult to use. This is most definately a fact.

Now... what is there really to argue about with the current system? Or to even discuss or debate?

Bombing used to be the absolute simplest portion of the game. It also used to have a large impact on the game. Neither is currently true.

If any of this was a push away from realism then I'd understand any arguments or debates on the subject. But they aren't... they are a push towards it.

Then, we get into the "too difficult" portion. I don't have to fly a bomber to see their effects. I've been defending on many an occasion where 3 bombers flew over and demolished half of a base or all of a town. I know it can be done... and I know that practice will help ensure it happens more often.

Have you, or anyone complaining about the difficulty of bombers ever dropped a bomb from a fighter or fired rockets from one? How easy is that to do and hit a target? What makes it easier to do repeatedly.

I'm sorry that bombing now requires some level of attention and skill. I'm also sorry that individual bombs can't now be placed with complete precision and that a single bomber is no longer as effective as it used to be. I'm sorry because it means there will be more posts like this.

And... with every post like this... the "fluffs" nomicker becomes a better fit.

AKDejaVu

Karnak · « **Reply #2 on:** July 22, 2002, 03:36:02 PM »

DejaVu,

Many of us pro-bomber people really like the new system. We just want some realistic targets to go with the more realistic bombing system.

Realisticly laid out strategic targets that have a worth while effect on the war is all I'm asking for. I think that the field layout is fine as it is, a bomber or three shouldn't be able to close the airfield. But please, please give the bombers a strategic purpose.

Innominate · « **Reply #3 on:** July 22, 2002, 03:44:22 PM »

I love the bomber changes, I have no trouble hitting what I put my crosshairs on.

The problem is, for precision like that you need to have a LONG straight and level run, 10-25 miles. This means that, a bomber run is generally restricted to one pass. On virtually every target, one pass is usually unnoticable to anyone but yourself.

Sure you can take up five or six formations and completely kill a field. But you can take up five or six jabos, kill a field, and cap it so a goon can capture it.

The problem isn't that bombing is too hard, the problem is that jabos are far more effective against any target in the game, except for cities. Bombers are set up to carpet bomb large areas, the only target which fits that criteria are the cities. The strat targets and fields all require pinpoint bombing to have any real effect. Combine this with the fact that a bomber run takes much longer than a jabo sortie and you have the death of bombers.

The solution IMO is to fix targets, make carpetbombing more effective against strat, and against certain portions of fields. Buffs should be able to inconvienience a field, by hurting fuel, ordnance, troops, whatever, but shutting it down should remain difficult.

Chairboy · « **Reply #4 on:** July 22, 2002, 03:46:58 PM »

I agree w/ Karnak.

AKDejaVu, I do not agree w/ you. The implicit assumption in your post seems to be that bombers should be grateful that they are even allowed in the game and that any dissent we offer is because we're crying little children that can't handle the 'scary new bomber system'.

AKIron · « **Reply #5 on:** July 22, 2002, 03:50:31 PM »

I've practiced offline quite a bit but have found that I still can't calibrate as accurately as I'd like. No big deal for me as I never was much for flying buffs. I do wonder however if there is an intentional randomness programmed in to the calibration routine that makes it virtually impossible to get a very precise calibration (have posed this question to the Q&A forum). Would just like to know if I just need more practice or if I need to forget about precision bombing.

Innominate · « **Reply #6 on:** July 22, 2002, 03:58:14 PM »

For accurate bombing,
Open your bomb bay doors. Fly perfectly straight and level for at least 20-25 miles approaching your target, From this point on, the only way you can turn is via the bombsight.

Set up your calibration during this time, target altitude, etc. Once your target appears at the very edge of your view from the f6, or f3 view, preform the speed calibration, make sure you're zoomed in all the way, and track a specific feature. Mark for 15-30 seconds. The longer you mark for, the more accurate the drop.

If you do this, you can pick off targets with pinpoint accuracy. It takes quite a long time to set up, and since the turning is so slow, you cant hit anything not lined up.

Compare this with all of the set up required for pinpoint jabo attacks.

AKIron · « **Reply #7 on:** July 22, 2002, 04:00:18 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Innominate
For accurate bombing,
Open your bomb bay doors. Fly perfectly straight and level for at least 20-25 miles approaching your target, From this point on, the only way you can turn is via the bombsight.

Set up your calibration during this time, target altitude, etc. Once your target appears at the very edge of your view from the f6, or f3 view, preform the speed calibration, make sure you're zoomed in all the way, and track a specific feature. Mark for 15-30 seconds. The longer you mark for, the more accurate the drop.

If you do this, you can pick off targets with pinpoint accuracy. It takes quite a long time to set up, and since the turning is so slow, you cant hit anything not lined up.

Compare this with all of the set up required for pinpoint jabo attacks.

Thanks, I'll give that a try.

AKIron · « **Reply #8 on:** July 22, 2002, 04:28:36 PM »

Just practiced some more. Found that increasing the mark time to around a minute does indeed improve my accuracy. Thanks again for the tip. Here's a screen shot from about 10k, speed and course stabilized, zoomed all the way in. Close enough maybe.

AKDejaVu · « **Reply #9 on:** July 22, 2002, 04:29:38 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Chairboy
I agree w/ Karnak.

AKDejaVu, I do not agree w/ you. The implicit assumption in your post seems to be that bombers should be grateful that they are even allowed in the game and that any dissent we offer is because we're crying little children that can't handle the 'scary new bomber system'.

Umm... no.

You imply with yours and again with this that for some reason, bomber pilots should have it easier than those flying fighters. Or that they should have a greater impact.

And Karnak... I'm all for realistically laid out targets... but that is not what is implied by this post.

Basically, its a complaint that bomber pilots that complain about not having enough of an impact on gameplay and are told they are whining is a major problem. Sorry... but I don't agree.

Bombing has been made more difficult, though not nearly as difficult as it was in WW2. Impact of a single bomber pilot has been lessened to an extent (though they are definately more devastating against a town) but it is not nearly as non-impacting as a single bomber in WW2 would have been.

Some want realism and immersion Karnak... you may be in that category. More people want immediate reward/impact. That is not a step towards realism.

Its just hard to believe that HTC has designed a system where 3 pilots can level everything at a field from 15k, but people still complain about their impact... or their impossible targetting capabilities. Both from a realism aspect and from what I see demonstrated in the MA on a regular basis... both complaints are without merrit.

AKDejaVu

Karnak · « **Reply #10 on:** July 22, 2002, 04:54:05 PM »

DejaVu,

Yes, bombers can be quite effective against the towns. However, a 110G-2 or Mossie is much more effective against towns. They will also destroy it, but in much less time and far more reliably.

That is the crux of the problem right now, a single bomber pilot has significantly less effect on the game than a single fighter or Jabo pilot.

Strategic targets, laid out in a fashion that makes bombers more effective against them than Jabos, that have a real impact on the war would solve all of this.

The reason that I called you out is that I have read several of your posts in these "bombers are screwed" threads and you are always dismissive of the bomber fliers concerns. Three guys in Lancs can take out an airfield, but they need to be very lucky to do so. Your reply to me carries a tone that makes it seem as though you believe doing so to be an easy and common place occurance.

In Chairboy's other thread I specifically stated my oposition to a return of lazer guided bombs. But that is a far cry from thinking everthing is fine.

Innominate · « **Reply #11 on:** July 22, 2002, 05:37:58 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by AKIron
Just practiced some more. Found that increasing the mark time to around a minute does indeed improve my accuracy. Thanks again for the tip. Here's a screen shot from about 10k, speed and course stabilized, zoomed all the way in. Close enough maybe.

When you're that close, the bomb drift, the fact that you're dropping three bombs, and the blast radius combine to hit whatever you aimed at.

Sachs · « **Reply #12 on:** July 22, 2002, 05:46:11 PM »

remember u can use the bombers in a dive bombing role. IE ju88 a20g, TBM. Heck any bomber can be used. I just suck at bombing now so if i want soemthing down i take a ju88 or an a20 and dive bomb works for me.

Wotan · « **Reply #13 on:** July 22, 2002, 05:53:23 PM »

listen to ag

the new bomber model is great. learn your trade quit complaining. The ah bomber model ia a good step forward. I do however think bombers seem a bit fragile.

Bomber pilots have a history of whines in ah. Bombers should not be able to snipe off individual structures. They should not modelled so that 1 bomber can have a far greater effect on gameplay then they had realistically (no killing fhs at the closest fight).

The fact that the ah buff model seperates the fluffers from the dedicated bomber pilot/squad is a good thing.

Innominate · « **Reply #14 on:** July 22, 2002, 06:27:05 PM »

The bombsight isnt a problem in any way. Targets are built toi make it difficult for an old-style fluffer to do a lot of damage in one pass. This includes strat. This means that most targets REQUIRE pinpoint bombing to damage. Our targets, strat, fields, whatever, need to be set up so that a bomber is able to do damage to them. Strat bombing as it stands now is pointless, how often have you noticed if your strat was bombed, without checking? Strat bombing has no effect except to give the buff pilot some perks, and bomber points.

And stop this "well if you get 6 buff pilots up, they can completly shut down a field" crap. If you get six 110 pilots, or tiffie pilots up, They can completly shut down a field quicker than any buff formation. The difference is the jabos can cap the field and bring out a goon. The buff pilots get to fly home.

--begin generic cut-n-paste bomber post--
Every target except cities though, are so spread out that 90% of carpetbombing hit's open ground, doing no damage. The targets are the problem not the bombsight. Even if calibration was automatic and perfect, the same problems exist. The bombsight works, and an accurate calibration is quite easy to do, it just takes 25miles or so of straight and level flight, lined up on the target.

Strat targets have too little effect on the game, and as just as hard as fields to damage by carpetbombing. With the amount of time it takes to accuratly bomb, you can do two jabo runs. A single jabo is more effective against any target than a single buff formation.

Then you cant forget the bomber damage bugs, where damage to one plane seems to affect them all. I believe what happens is, the plane the pilot is in gets damaged, and the damage stays with the pilot not the plane. So shoot down the first plane by taking a piece off, and for some reason the other planes will have the same damage. This is why whole formations seem to go down in one pass.
--end bomber post---