Author Topic: "Mission Theater" Concerns and Questions.  (Read 954 times)

Offline Toad

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"Mission Theater" Concerns and Questions.
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2002, 11:46:14 PM »
Like Deja said, talk all ya like.

They're busy DOING it. I'm not going to bother them.

Cyas.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline senna

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"Mission Theater" Concerns and Questions.
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2002, 12:01:08 AM »
Yep, I think HTC knows what their doing. They know that another arena wouldnt have a chance unless it drew on large numbers from the main and kept them in the new arena. My own personal opinion though, I prefer the main to the CT because there are more players, thats about it. Plane choice is secondary and I live with the things I DONT like about MA anyways just because of the numbers in there. Though the current MA is nowhere near what I would like of a MA. Old MA, new MA, Historic Arena MA do any of us really know what the heck we are talking about. Only HT knows and ultimately its up to HT to determine how things will be.

Offline Sabre

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"Mission Theater" Concerns and Questions.
« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2002, 08:52:35 AM »
In my interview with HiTech at the Con last year, he said something very revealing.  He said, to paraphrase, that they often don't have an exact plan in mind with they introduce a new idea or feature.  They simply throw it out there and see what people do with it.  That's part of their genious.  They don't have to come up with all the details themselves.  The  put the general idea out there, or introduce it into the game, then see what people come up with.  I'd bet you a six pack of Shiner Bock they're watching this and other threads to collect ideas and find potential show-stoppers.  The current resupply system is a good example of this genesis process.  They originaly threw in the ability to resupply bases, then watched what happened, what people liked, and how it was abused.  Then they refined the concept, added convoys and trains, etc.

Good show, Eskimo, starting this thread.  We, the community are a defacto part of the HTC R&D department.  Keep those questions coming.
Sabre
"The urge to save humanity almost always masks a desire to rule it."

Offline BUG_EAF322

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"Mission Theater" Concerns and Questions.
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2002, 08:54:58 AM »
no concerns just one word

WOW !!

when something is right i know it

i knew it with 1.02 (as i stepped in there)

Offline BUG_EAF322

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« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2002, 08:57:29 AM »
Quote
I also have one suggestion. What I miss in AH is ground war. For example, in scenarios its damn hard to find people do drive tanks.


I miss u Camo u used to be much more online in the past
:D

together with ur flight bud snefens

Offline Wotan

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« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2002, 08:58:19 AM »
Camo TOD is one of the best things about ah. :)

Offline Sabre

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After giving it a little thought...
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2002, 10:29:25 AM »
As a self-described immersionist (def. One who seeks immersion in a sim as a primary goal), this opens up a whole new realm.  While mission-driven sims are not new (WWIIOL, Screaming Demons Over Europe, Falcon 4.0), I’ve yet to see a MMOG do it properly.  That’s why I’m really excited to HTC taking it on.  Many missions that were common in WWII air combat are rarely if ever seen in the MA.  Things like CAS, interdiction (either of trains, convoys, or armored columns), SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses), strategic bombing are a few examples.  Part of the reason for this is that even those like myself who like the immersion of historical missions don’t bother with them in the MA because they are perceived to have little or no affect on “the War.”  Plus, our immersion is somewhat spoiled when our Lancasters and Forts are met and attacked by P-51’s, Tempests, and F4U-1C’s.  So I’m really excited by the possibilities.  Because the “Mission Theater” (HTC’s term, not my own) doesn’t have to conform to the MA strat and supply system, a whole host of possibilities arise to allow these heretofore little used mission types to become viable and useful.  The following is a list of mission types and their targets/objectives I can think of off the top of my head.  Feel free to expand on it.

- Strategic Bombing Strike: cities, refineries, ammo factories, radar factories, troop training facilities
- Escort (loose or close): defend strategic, operational, or tactical strike packages
- Operation Level Strike: airfields, vehicle bases, rail yards (got to have these), bridges, damns, depots, ports
- Deep Interdiction: truck convoys, barge convoys, trains, armored columns (like truck convoys, only composed of armored vehicles; represents operational maneuvering of ground forces behind the FEBA)
- Close Air Support: deployed and/or engaged enemy ground forces
- Combat Air Patrol (CAP): Point defense of bases, strategic targets, or operational targets against enemy air attacks
- BARCAP: CAP of an area, forward deployed versus directly over a target to be defended
- Maritime Strike: Task groups and merchant convoys
- Reconnaissance: Locate specific targets, or just general assessment of enemy positions and dispositions
- Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses (SEAD): Anti-aircraft guns, radar antennas, Air Defense Centers (HQ)
- Amphibias Assault: Destroy shore defenses and land X-number of troops within Y-miles of objective
- Air Assault: Drop X-number of paratroops within Y-miles/yards of an objective
- Armored Assault: Ground attack against a target to destroy or occupy it
- Supply Mission (air or ground): Drop X-tons of supplies within Y-miles/yards of friendly target

The next question is whether base capture as it exists in the MA would be enabled, or whether some other method would be used to determine how the front moves and who is “winning.”  For that matter, would a way to win the war even be included.  I hope so since, in addition to participating in a historical mission and advancing my rank and stats, I also want to see some tangible results from a well-executed mission.  In a real war, you take a piece of real estate by destroying the enemy forces in that area (or forcing them to withdraw), then occupying it with your own forces.  Air and naval attacks on operational and strategic targets is done to reduce the enemy forces and resources used to either attack your territory or to resist your advance into his territory.  

Falcon 4.0 had an A/I controlled war, where missions were generated on the fly for the human player.  Your level of success in each mission was abstracted into a complex algorithm to determine if the front moved forward or backward, and by how much.  A lot of code went into this.  As en example, an enemy A/I controlled North Korean armored column would be launched towards Soul.  The campaign code would generate an opposing South Korean/US armored column to meet it, which is only half the size of the enemy force.  An interdiction mission would be generated for the player to perform.  Should the player and his A/I wingmen manage to take out 50% of the North Korean column, than there was a 50/50 chance the South Korean/US force would manage to halt and turn back the assault.  The more enemy armor the player destroys, the better the odds the South Koreans would win the ground engagement, with the level of victory or defeat determining whether the front moves north, south, or remains as is.  This is in contrast to WWIIOL’s capture the flag method for taking territory, where all forces are player-controlled, including the foot soldiers doing the capturing.  It really all depends on how much HTC wants to automate, how much code they want to write.

In an 8th Air Force/RAF vs. the Luftwaffe scenario as proposed for the first set up, you could simply set and monitor victory conditions, such as bombs on strat targets, bombers destroyed, defending fighters destroyed, run it for a week or two and add up the score.  This is vulnerable to milk-running on the Allies part of course, and would have to be addressed somehow.  These are just my initial thoughts on the subject.
Sabre
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Offline Midnight

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"Mission Theater" Concerns and Questions.
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2002, 11:12:47 AM »
I love the entire concept.

Eskimo, to address your concerns...


* If you can only join missions, how do you oppose an enemy mission?
* If the Axis have an offensive mission, will the Allies automatically have a defensive mission to counter it?
* If all the defenders die once, can they no longer defend? If defenders only get one life, once all of them die, the mission then becomes a milkrun, and perhaps boring.


I imaging there would be something like this
Allied Mission: destroy ammo factory : start 13:00
     Write up: Send in B17s escorted by P51s to destroy the ammo factory. The LW are expected to be flying patrols in this area, and German early warning radar systems are in place.

Axis Mission 1: CAP ammo factory area : start 13:00
     Write up: Fly CAP in the ammo factory area. Inteligence reports that the Allies will be trying to bomb this factory sometime today because there has been serval actions in this area during the past week.

Axis Mission 2: CAP ammo factory area : start 13:30
     Write up: Fly CAP in the ammo factory area. Inteligence reports that the Allies will be trying to bomb this factory sometime today because there has been serval actions in this area during the past week.


If the defenders die, they would have to wait until the next mission rolled (30 minute invertvals?) to get back up there. I think this is close to TOD action, as it should be, once you clear the enemy, they are dead. But in this situation, more defenders could be coming in the second mission launching.

2. My second concern is what do people do between mission start times?
* If missions start every 30 minutes, and your dead or done in 15 or 35 minutes, what is there to do until the next mission starts?
* Will people end up going to the MA, TA or CT (if it still exists) to kill some time until the next mission? If so will folks have trouble staying in sync with the mission theater start times?


Between mission start times? How about reading the mission orders for the next mission, coordinating with other freindly pilots and figuring out the best method to carry out the mission. The goal will be to live long and prosper, so a little bit of pre-breifing coldn't hurt.

Hey, some people just won't have the ability to sit idle while the next mission comes up. Some people will. Furballers probably won't won't be in the waiting crowd. However I suspect you will see quite a few people that don't mind the wait to get a little more immersion in the game. I for one will wait.

Obviously, we all will have some questions about how this will all pan out, but I highly doubt HTC came up with this idea last night and decided to post about it this mornning. There must have been a great deal of talk between all of them concerning the logistics of this, and if there would be a player base to support it. My guess would be that most ideas or comments that we come up with in the next few days will already have been considered by HTC long before they decided to give us this news.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2002, 11:30:33 AM »
well... I gotta agree with sabre on one thing....  No matter how oulandish the whine or well thought out the question, I think they are all useful to HTC.

It costs them no money or real time to simply read the concerns of the player base or, to look at some of the ideas the player base may come up with.   I would say that it was to their advantage to get the input early.

I don't see anything wrong or alarmist about what our little blubber eating friend has asked.  Seems legit to me.    OTOH, saying that missuns will take off every 5 minutes seems a little..... bizzare considering that 12 "missuns' an hour divided by an average arena population of about 10 guys dived by 2 (one allied side one axis side)   doesn't seem to work out.    1 "missun" per hour would give an average of 6 or so per side (if you could side balance) but you might have to wait 59 minutes to join in....  

Not being able to communicate easily with the other arena might make you forget all about the "missun" arena with it's 59 minute wait and you might just log on to the MA and never log out to check back on the status of the "missun" arena...  especially if there were only 20 guys or so in there when you seen the log on screen in the first place.
lazs
l

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2002, 11:35:58 AM »
Maybe "design considerations for the MT" would have been better, what you did was whine eskimo.
I hope if I log into the theater and no one else is there it will cut me a 3 base recon mission or a jabo stike on a vh or a supply hanger or a train. Or a find the fleet mission.If someone else logs on I hope it cuts them a intercept mission.
If there are a few of us I hope it cuts some mission that makes use of the people available. I hope that it will ask pilots to change sides to match the numbers if it needs too and that they will not be penalized for doing so in rank or medals.

Lots of flexibility available if enough time is spent tuneing the thing.

A simple list of missions that rotate without consideration for sides or situation of the map would be less then ideal.

Offline Oldman731

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« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2002, 11:41:31 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
well... I gotta agree with sabre on one thing....  No matter how oulandish the whine or well thought out the question, I think they are all useful to HTC.

It costs them no money or real time to simply read the concerns of the player base or, to look at some of the ideas the player base may come up with.   I would say that it was to their advantage to get the input early.


Yup.  Good for you, Eskimo.

- oldman

Offline Sabre

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« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2002, 11:53:29 AM »
Well to commorate my ol' buddy and arch nemesis Lazs' agreement with me (who'd of thunk it:eek:), I'll return the favor.  There does in deed need to be some way for people in the MA to know what's happening in the MT, IMO.  My suggestion would be a system message 10 minutes before start time, reminding players a mission was about to start.

If Eskimo says he didn't intend it as a whine, then out of civility just let it go.  I believe his intent was to promote useful dialogue.  Regarding Pongo's ideas, I like having the missions be "tuned" the available arena population, though it won't be and easy thing to pull off.
Sabre
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Offline zipity

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"Mission Theater" Concerns and Questions.
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2002, 10:16:29 AM »
I wonder what kind of impact this might have on existing Squads.  Example: if a mission requires 10 pilots, but you happen to have 20 logged on from you squad, either some of the squad is going to have to wait for follow on missions OR squads may have to return to the MA for weekly squad events.

It would be real nice if there was a way to schedule a mission.  Ex: every Wednesday at 8pm need a mission for 23 pilots.  Perhaps even reserved for a particular squad.  That way bomber squads would know a bomber mission would be waiting for them, jabo squads would have a jabo mission.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2002, 09:34:48 AM »
sabre.. I don't think you go far enough with a "system anouncement" in the MA ten minutes before a "missun"  I really think that the map/clipboard needs to be on a toggle so that you can instantly see what is going on in every arena and...  have instant access.   I really don't think people will use the arena if they have to log out of one and then log back into another.

The guys that are happy doing nothing will just stay in the "missun" arena all the time  (why be flustered flyin with the cretins in the MA for any reason?)  and those who might like a change of pace from the MA will be having too much fun most of the time to go to all the trouble to "check out" the "missun arena".  Without an easy way to switch arenas..... it seems doomed to be like every other seperate arena idea I have ever seen.
lazs

Offline Yeager

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« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2002, 09:58:39 AM »
it seems doomed to be like every other seperate arena idea I have ever seen.
====
Small steps lazs.......Best way to approach this is with small steps.  Perhaps this is just one small step for lazs, one giant leap for lazskind.

In any event, dont fret it.  We all know the vast majority is content with things just the way they werent.  This missun arena concept is nearly different enough to merit some "wait and see" before we break out the "doom and gloom".  You really have nothing to fear.  We only want your ovaries.  Let us sit down and remember tomorrow before we wake up and live yesterday.

Also. if a system message were to be delivered in the MA regarding an impending missun start in the MT, is there a chance that the furball between A4 and A5 might dissipate in a speedy and anticlimatic fashion??  This could be a bad thing....a very bad thing.  The vast majority could be in for some very tough times.
This has the potentiol to make those dastardly pre 1.10 fluffers with their fun killing pursuits look like tits on a flea!

Food for thought.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2002, 10:10:54 AM by Yeager »
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