Author Topic: Any chance we will see this in Mission Arena?  (Read 480 times)

Offline Nefarious

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Any chance we will see this in Mission Arena?
« on: July 25, 2002, 07:48:48 PM »
Mandatory Friendly Icons only....Please oh Please!!
There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!

Offline Miska

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Any chance we will see this in Mission Arena?
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2002, 08:05:15 PM »
seconded, thirded and fourthed.

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2002, 09:50:56 PM »
So you like simulating aircombat as fought by pilots with 20/400 vision?

:rolleyes:
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Offline Nefarious

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Any chance we will see this in Mission Arena?
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2002, 11:01:38 PM »
Its simple really, no icons=badguys.

Its not rocket science folks!
There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!

Offline LLv34_Camouflage

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Any chance we will see this in Mission Arena?
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2002, 12:24:47 AM »
The icon settings will definately have to be considered carefully. Since survivability will be a huge issue in the mission threater, the current icons, even if visible only at shorter ranges, simply wont work. Surprise bounces and disengaging from a fight are simply too difficult with the present neon signs.

I wonder if HTC have looked into developing the icon system further, with fading icons for example. If the icon system itself wont be changed with "some revolutionary idea", then in my opinion "friendly only icons" would be probably the best option available.

Who is the typical player that will play in the mission theater?  What is the icon setting preference of this player?

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Offline Karnak

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« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2002, 01:18:03 AM »
Quite honestly, the vast majority of "realism fanatics" that I've "spoken" to grossly misunderstand the number of non-manuvering fighters killed by surprise bounces.

They quote that statistic (I've never even seen the original sourcing for it, I wonder if it isn't simply an off hand statement that has been passed on as fact, like the mythical 15mm machineguns in the Bf109K-4's cowling) that says something like 90% of guys shot down never saw the guy that got them.

That by no means indicates that 90% of the pilots that got shot down were flying along on cruising power when , suddenly they were shot down.

What it means is that they were involved in what they were doing, almost always in a fight and trying to get a shot on somebody (hey, we've all done it, its called target fixation, they were hardly immune to it in the real deal) when somebody they weren't watching got a shot on them.  It happens to all of us in these sims.  Not as often surely, but it does happen with some frequency.

Adding the assumption of level flight adds information to the statment that isn't there.  It adds assumptions.

Now, going on the books on Aces I have read, Sakai's and Tuck's spring to mind, relatively few of their kills were on people flying level.  Tuck's first kill was, and he was bounced while doing the same in his Hurri IIc (though less successfully from the enemy's viewpoint) and I can only think of the P-39 Sakai broke in half from his book.  On the other hand, both books described numerous kills in which the enemy was manuvering and at combat power, but simply didn't see Tuck or Sakai.
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Offline john9001

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« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2002, 01:53:53 AM »
i flew in a scenero with the icons set for 1000 yds, i would say 4 out of 5 dots i chased turned out to be friendly, so turn off the icons and have fun chasing the dots.
people who want icons off like to dive in for a easy kill

Offline XNachoX

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« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2002, 02:48:35 AM »
Computer technology isn't yet far enough to simulate depth perception, so icons off would be very UNrealistic.  BTW Aces High models far off cons as dots and not actual models so you'd have a hard time ID'ing the con.

Offline Miska

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« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2002, 08:00:33 AM »
What is really needed is a simple setting for minimum icon range.  If the icons compensate for dot range but then are turned off inside, say 1.0k, I am happy.  Some sort of fade-in would also be desirable, but a simple minimum cut-off distance is simplest and therefore most likely to be added (I suppose).

Offline Rude

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« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2002, 08:17:09 AM »
In real life, you can visually ID an aircraft at 5000 yrds...staring at a monitor, you cannot. I realize it sounds good, but in truth, it isn't....not enough data, which again, in RL you would have the visual info.

Now, remove the enemy icon (at least the large stuff) within 1500 yrds, and......

Offline Nefarious

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« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2002, 10:04:19 AM »
I guess it is something that we will have to wait and see...

I cant understand why no enemy icons would be "unrealistic"...
There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!

Offline Masherbrum

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« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2002, 10:06:11 AM »
True Grit, huh Nef?  

Rude, right with ya, agree 100%

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Offline LLv34_Camouflage

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Any chance we will see this in Mission Arena?
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2002, 12:11:37 PM »
Karnak, good point.  But is target fixation really an issue with the current icon system?  Imho, its too easy to re-acquire a target after checking your six during a fight, therefore you really don't have to fixate on the target in the first place.  Checking your six is also too easy, because all you have to do is look for the "red neon".


Quote
Originally posted by john9001
i flew in a scenero with the icons set for 1000 yds, i would say 4 out of 5 dots i chased turned out to be friendly, so turn off the icons and have fun chasing the dots.
people who want icons off like to dive in for a easy kill


I totally agree, "no icons" is too difficult and leads into "dot chasing".  Friendlies have to have icons.


Quote
Originally posted by XNachoX
Computer technology isn't yet far enough to simulate depth perception, so icons off would be very UNrealistic. BTW Aces High models far off cons as dots and not actual models so you'd have a hard time ID'ing the con.


Our squadron has flown a lot without enemy icons and the experience was much better.  After minimal practise you can ID the enemy plane type at about 1K. And like was mentioned, "no icon = enemy plane".  

After a little practise you start to notice little details in the game that you never saw before.  Gunnery skills become much more important. Target fixation becomes an issue like you've never had to deal with before: re-acquiring the target is MUCH more difficult, which leads to situations which Karnak explained above.

Try it.  You can turn enemy icons off yourself, see how it works.

Camo
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Brewster's in AH!
"How about the power to kill a Yak from 200 yards away - with mind bullets!"

Offline aharder

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Any chance we will see this in Mission Arena?
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2002, 01:10:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by XNachoX
Computer technology isn't yet far enough to simulate depth perception, so icons off would be very UNrealistic.  BTW Aces High models far off cons as dots and not actual models so you'd have a hard time ID'ing the con.


XNachoX, you are very wrong. Check out my post "2 Breakthroughs for AH" You'll see.
    In fact, I am looking at my desktop right now with true depth perception! It's the coolest thing in the world.

Offline Nifty

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« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2002, 01:15:21 PM »
I've tried icons off.  I couldn't tell if they were 300 yards out or 500 yards out.   I couldn't judge closure until they were nearly on top of me. And don't tell me either doesn't make a difference in a fight.  I don't care so much about the chess piece or the plane type.  I need the range info though, because current technology does not come close to giving my eyes the information they'd get if they were in the cockpit in terms of range estimation and rate of closure.

As soon as a monitor can simulate accurate stereoscopic vision in which to properly judge depth and motion, I'll fly icons off.
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