bombing

[Pongo]

"Bombers can still kill the twns in the support of field capture. I dont know who told you it was the roll of a minority in community (bomber pilots) to stop the majorioty (fighter pilots) from having fun.
"
what a pile of crap. what are you on.
that is like saying that its wrong for fighters to shoot down bombers..what a joke.

[Wotan]

BS bongo

read a book

Bombers never were used to kill individaul structures in rl so why make gameplay concesions now.

Theres other targets more suited for the type of bomber model we have now. Maybe theses "areas" should be bigger and more dense with structures but ending a good fight because 2 structures are hit is bs.

HT decided to make his bomber model tougher.

Theres all kinds of room for improvement but allowing for fhs or fuel or any structure to be sniped off with laser accuracy is stretching it a bit even for gameplay.

I dont even fly bombers and I have killed 3/4 in a ju88 with just 20 x 50kg. Thats the type of roll bombers have. Area bombing. Instead of whining about what ya cant hit go bomb what ya can.

[Joc]

You CAN hit more or less anything you set out to in a bomber now,all it takes is PRACTICE!!!!,when this new version came out I couldnt hit a barn door,nothing!!! in fact I made a post or two somehwere here about how much I hated it,BUT! I stuck with it,you learn little 'tricks',best way to approach a target,best speed to run up to a target,best delay for a decent bomb pattern,best salvo to use in specific a/c,and now with bombers being less tough,best evasive maneuvers to put fighters off,(love corckscrewing my Lanc now ),stick with it,bombing IS an art now,and very,very satisfying once you get it down

[Shiva]

Thats all well and good Shiva...BUT..if ya cant kill hangars at an airbase, then buffs are useless, other than a way to get some points via egging cities, depots, large bases, etc. I dont mind having to line up a sector out, not bein able to make last second course changes, etc..but if i do ALL THAT at 15k or so..150 mph..no wind..and cant kill ONE FREAKIN FH with 36 eggs...then why fly a buff?

Back before the reset, when we were on the Mindanao map, I made two separate bombing runs with B-26 formations, on Field 33 and field 41 (I think that's the right number; southeast corner at the tip of the peninsula south of Port 39); both times I was dropping from 16K or better, up in the wind layer, and both times I took out two hangars --  one FH and one BH -- dropping 500-lb bombs. If you can't do it with a full load of 1,000-lb bombs in a B-17 formation, then you're doing something wrong.

My latest mistake is not checking my ordnance loadout, getting to target, and dropping these four 500-lb bombs on this target, and these four 500-lb bombs on... no drop sound... and watching the twelve 1,000-lb bombs grossly overkill my first target...

[Pongo]

"Bombers never were used to kill individaul structures in rl so why make gameplay concesions now.
"
Assuming your just un educated and not a total BSer
Lancs level droped a single bomb onto a single ship and hit it.
is that a point target or what larry..
If that kind of accuracy is possible then it should be in the game right.
So what are you talking about? did the RAF dive bomb tall boys into the Tirpitz? Or those UBoat pens? or are those not structures?
Countless other strikes during the war probebly involved trying to hit individual buildings or targets from level bombers with varying results. Not every bomber raid in the war was a 1000 bomber USAF daylight carpet bombing raid.

Cry about people killing your hangers if you like.
A good bomber should be able to hit it at will from 10k with no opposition. And if you dont like that provide some opposition.

Hitting acks is silly but hitting hangers is not..

[bj229r]

mebbe answer is to make strat targets at bases harder to kill via strafing---a 110 can strafe all strat targets at a small base in nothin flat ....but it takes 4 75 mm HE shells from a panzer to kill 1 55 gallon gas drum, or a well-placed 250 lb. egg from a buff (latter is less likely now, other than carpet bombing pass). THAT would make the more realistic carpet bombing approach worth while. (OK..I agree, it IS more realistic). Failing that, make hitting actual strat targets have some assignable value that shows nmy ability degraded somehow...such that the buff driver knows he (or she) has done something varifiably contribute to the war effort, and not just getting points.

[Pongo]

Shiva.
thanks for the confirmation that bombing still works for someone like it did for me in 1.10
I either have to relearn how to calibrate or there HT broke bombing for me when he fixed it for every one else.

I suspect the latter.

[Wotan]

1 bomber didnt sink the tirpitz.....

They flow numerous sorties to sink her

The Tirpitz, second and last battleship of the Bismarck class, was the largest warship built in Germany. She was commissioned on February 1941, and afterwards went to the Baltic to conduct sea trials. At the beginning of 1942, she was sent to Norway in order to repel a possible allied invasion, and to attack the Russia-bound Arctic convoys. As part of the "Fleet in being", her mere presence forced the Allies to maintain a considerable force in Scapa Flow that could be otherwise employed in other theatres of operations. In July 1942, she was indirectly responsible for the destruction of convoy PQ-17 without firing a single shot. In September 1943, while anchored in Altenfiord, she was attacked by British midget submarines and put out of action for the first time. Later submitted to continuous aerial bombings, the Tirpitz was finally sunk on 12 november 1944 after being hit by 5.4-ton "Tallboy" bombs.

03 April 1944: At 0528, Tirpitz is attacked by 40 bombers from the carriers Victorious, Furious, Emperor, Searcher, Fencer, and Pursuer. She is hit by 10 bombs of 225 kg and 4 of 775 kg. 132 dead and 316 wounded. At 0636 there is a second wave with no success.

After being refitted she went to sea again.

01 July 1944: Ready to begin her trials again.

31 July-1 August 1944: Conducts her last trials with the destroyers Z-29, Z-31, Z-33, Z-34, and Z-39.

22 August 1944: Attacked by 32 Barracudas from carriers Indefatigable, Furious, Formidable, Nabob, and Trumpeter with no success.

24 August 1944: Attacked by 33 Barracudas from carriers Indefatigable, Furious, and Formidable. Two hits. 8 dead and 13 wounded.

29 August 1944: Attacked by 26 Barracudas, with no success.

15 September 1944: Attacked by 27 Lancasters from Yagodnik near Archangel. Tirpitz is hit on the forecastle by a 5.4-ton "Tallboy" bomb. The damage is severe and the battleship is no longer seaworthy.

15 October 1944: After temporary repairs in the bow, the Tirpitz sails at 8 knots to Tromsö fiord and anchors off Haaköy Island to remain there as a floating battery.

29 October 1944: Attacked by 32 Lancasters of the 617th Dam Buster Squadron without success.

12 November 1944: Attacked by 32 Lancasters. Shortly after 0940, the Tirpitz is hit by two "Tallboy" bombs on the port side amidships. Four other bombs near-miss the battleship. At 0952 the ship capsizes at 69º 36' north, 18º 59' east. 971 dead.

Hardly sniped off by 1 bomber/ or 3..........

it may have taken 1 bomb to finish her but not just 1 bomber / or 3. Why dont read up on bombers.  

The submarines pens as well were hit over and over. No 1 bomber sniped off the tirpitz or any structure while bombing from alt.

Do I need to fill a post up demonstrating that, or will you conceed now that you haven't got a clue....

I can fly 1 lanc 50 times over an airfield and drop without using the site and could kill a hanger atleast once if not more.

Your weak arguement is laughable........moron......
Count the number of bomber sorties to kill that dead in the water ship.............

[Shiva]

Assuming your just un educated and not a total BSer
Lancs level droped a single bomb onto a single ship and hit it.
is that a point target or what larry..
If that kind of accuracy is possible then it should be in the game right.

During the summer of 1944, 47 B-29s raided the Yawata steel works from bases in China; only one plane actually hit the target area, and with only one of its bombs. This single 500 lb general purpose bomb (which hit a powerhouse located 3,700ft from the far more important coke houses that constituted the raid’s aiming point) represented one quarter of one per cent of the 376 bombs dropped over Yawata on that mission.

 In the fall of 1944, only seven per cent of all bombs dropped by the Eighth Air Force hit within 1,000ft of their aim point; even a fighter-bomber in a 40 degree dive releasing a bomb at 7,000ft could have a circular error (CEP) of as much as 1,000ft. It took 108 B-17 bombers, crewed by 1,080 airmen, dropping 648 bombs to guarantee a 96 per cent chance of getting just two hits inside a 400 by 500ft German power-generation plant.

In one of my posts in this thread, I have a table showing the accuracy percentages -- what percentage of bombs landed within 1,000' and 2,000' of target from January '43 through April '45... and it's depressing. Starting at 18% within 1,000', 31% within 2,000', by war's end, the 8th Air Force could expect to get no more than 58% of their bombs within 1,000' of their target -- on visual missions under conditions of good to fair visibility. Under poorer conditions, the accuracy was worse.

This compares pretty favorably to what we've seen for people squeaking about the new bombing.

that is BS, if you lack the skill to hit targets don't blame the game, i'm a mediocre pilot and i knocked down two FH on one pass with a flight of B-17's , you just have to know how to do it.

Try it in B-26's; it's a much better challenge, since you don't have as much excess ordnance to drop on the target to compensate for mediocre aim. And for some reason the B-26 drone pilots seem to be smarter than either the B-17 or Lancaster drone pilots; they follow you better.

thanks for the confirmation that bombing still works for someone like it did for me in 1.10
I either have to relearn how to calibrate or there HT broke bombing for me when he fixed it for every one else.

It's the calibration process; once you learn how to make it work for you, then your accuracy will go way up. My accuracy for the first two weeks of 1.10 was below 35%, but even with the nuke that that gives to my average, my accuracy is up to about 80% now. Next tour, when I can start understanding the bombsight, I should do even better.

[Wotan]

I certainly agree shiva,

Thats why I think the arguement should be for more targets, large area targets and more dense targets.

The question then becomes how should bombers impact the main overall.

I made a suggestion in another thread as to what I would "wish" for. Karnak has made a suggestion as well.

The days of laser directed bombs are over. WTG ht...........

[bj229r]

B29's make for bad example--they were an utter failure at precision bombing, which is what the tech weenies designed them, and their new engines for---the fire bomb raids were just a way to get SOME use out of the things

[Pongo]

Wotan
"15 September 1944: Attacked by 27 Lancasters from Yagodnik near Archangel. Tirpitz is hit on the forecastle by a 5.4-ton "Tallboy" bomb. The damage is severe and the battleship is no longer seaworthy.
"

The tallboy was a single bomb droped with precision by a single plane. your own quote defeats your argument. It was not carpet bombed it was level bombed at a precise target from an individual plane using the level bombing sight from altitude.
That it took many planes to be successfull is irrelivent. Just like the 1/2 % accuracy of the typical ww2 fighter pilot is irrelivent. should we restrict all fighter pilots in AH to 200 yeard shots and 1/2 % accuracy because that was typical of the war?


"quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
03 April 1944: At 0528, Tirpitz is attacked by 40 bombers from the carriers Victorious, Furious, Emperor, Searcher, Fencer, and Pursuer. She is hit by 10 bombs of 225 kg and 4 of 775 kg. 132 dead and 316 wounded. At 0636 there is a second wave with no success. "

We should limit the dive bomber and torpedo capablilities in the game to this level as well I suppose.. what is that...80 aircraft to no effect against a single probably moored battleship.

Your own text shows the sillyness of your argument.....

Level bombers were used for precision strikes. sorry you dont like that.
If you are going to limit the level bombers to the effectiveness of the crews that flew them in war with the level of opposition that they had to face then you must do the same to the other unit types in the game..
Sorry you just cant accept that the bombers are still broken in the latest patch...
Get them back to the way they were in 1.10 and I will love them again...

If level bombers are allowed to loiter over a field and bomb with impunity they will destroy the field. If fighters are allowed to strafe the ack down with impunity they will render the field useless. If ostwinds are allowed to approach a field unapposed they will render it defensless.
no different. If you dont want to defend your fields they will be destroyed. None of it is historic, this is a game.

You seem to think your cool cause you dont fly bombers...
reality check.

[Shiva]

We should limit the dive bomber and torpedo capablilities in the game to this level as well I suppose.. what is that...80 aircraft to no effect against a single probably moored battleship.

Contrast that against the flight of 8 Ju-87 Stukas where the single 1,000-kg bomb dropped by the flight leader, Hans-Ulrich Rudel, struck the magazine of the Russian battleship Marat and sank him. Or his solo attack against the Russian battleship Octyabrskaya Revolutsiya as he lay in port, the ship being described by the Russians as "slightly damaged and later raised".

(For people unfamiliar with the terminology, 'raising' a ship means refloating it after it has sunk to the bottom; the 'October Revolution' was sunk in shallow enough water that it could be repaired and refloated)

[Wotan]

just figure the averages 27 lancs dropping 27 tail boys on a vessel moving at a lowly 8 knots 1 was bound to hit.

If any 1 bomber could of hit and sunk it they would have sent just 1. The fact is it Bombers sortied enmass over and over until a few of the bombs were lucky enough to hit the mark.

As I said it took 1 (actually a few) bombs to sink the tirpitz but it took numerous sorties. why because all the other guys missed.

Thats the reason there were mass formations sortied at 1 target area. As Shiva has pointed out Early in the war , atleast for the 8th force, they landed at 18% of their ord within 1,000', 31% within 2,000'.  Anyone one bomb load had it hit with laser accurracy would have devastated the target area. The fact is even with the current ah model bombing is still easier and less complicated then real life.

My point about bombers not targeting individual structures was meant to point out no 1 bomber in ww2 would be able to snipe off fhs any where near the accurracy that we can in ah.

Anyone 1 bomb, provided it was large enough, can and should kill any structure. This doesnt mean that getting bombs on target should be easy. It wasnt.

I talked with a guy in the main who bombed and killed 2 fhs while I was sitting in the tower. I asked him how often was he able to kill the fhs. He said 8 - 10 times he can hit and kill what he aims at. I didnt check his states, he may have been lying but from what I saw it looked like more then just luck.

There is reason bombers carried lots of bombs and why they attacked enmass and why they had to do it over and over.

1 lancaster didnt attack and sink the tirpitz it took multiple drops and sorties. 1 (a few) may have hit and sunk (disabled) the tirpitz but it wasnt a "1 shot 1 kill"

I dunno what you mean about me thinking I'm cool but I do think your an idiot. The sinking of tirpitz was hardly a precision strike. As for the capabilities of dive bombers I think Shiva answered you there.

[Imp]

Attack on the Tirpitz was not done with the Norden.
The British used a precision bombsight for that attack.
In training the crews could hit within 200 yards of aiming point with that sight (the norden was much less accurate and only carried by some bombers not all of them).
Bombers without a bombsight dropped when the leader did probly reducing accuracy alot in the process.