Author Topic: Israeli settlers on rampage..  (Read 1878 times)

Offline ~Caligula~

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Israeli settlers on rampage..
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2002, 11:41:17 AM »
There must be some pretty good crack sold in Brooklyn.

Saddam sponsores terrorism....openly and he`s proud of it.
He can`t wait to get he`s hands on some nukes,and I don`t know about You,but I don`t have any doubts about what he would do with them.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2002, 11:47:00 AM »
We supported Saddam for a quite a long time, in fact we were even close to selling him a bunch of M1A1 Abrams tanks in the late 1980s. He actually used a few demonstration Abrams in the war. :D

But guess what?

He attacked our oil, I mean Kuwait. And threatened more of our oil, oh sorry I mean Saudi Arabia.  Then he was bad for us and our interestets.

How sad that two of old buddies betray us, first Saddam then Osama...

Oh well, now we gotta kill em!

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2002, 11:56:33 AM »
Caligula~: Saddam sponsores terrorism....openly and he`s proud of it.
  So do Saudi's and Kuwaitis - in case you did not notice, there were not any iraqis or palestinians among the 19 hijackers but plenty of saudis doing what their schools teach them.
 I am yer to hear about hussein sponsoring any terrorism against US - even after we attacked him.

He can`t wait to get he`s hands on some nukes,and I don`t know about You,but I don`t have any doubts about what he would do with them.
 That's because you are forgot that there are more countries in the world than just USA and Iraq.
 The 8-year war they had in 80s the against a deadly  fanatical enemy with 66 mil against their 20 mil was with Iran, not USA.
 Irak may be pretty backward by our standards, but being secular and preudo-democratic, the rest of the middle-age monarchies out there all hate them.
 So they probably did not develop the bomb all those years against US - which was their friend, but against Iran and other neighbours - just like Pakistan and India and China and Israel. I do not hear you calling to blow those up.

 Like Pinochert vs communists, "president" Hussein is much closer to us than medieval religious monarchs we protected from him.

 miko

 P.S. Women vote and work in Iraq. And the phrase "ALLAHU AKBAR (God is Great) was added to the flag in 1991 during the Persian Gulf crisis (like our "under god" under pretext of fighting communists).
« Last Edit: July 29, 2002, 12:08:57 PM by miko2d »

Offline babek-

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« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2002, 01:02:13 PM »
miko2d wrote: That's because you are forgot that there are more countries in the world than just USA and Iraq. The 8-year war they had in 80s the against a deadly fanatical enemy with 66 mil against their 20 mil was with Iran, not USA.

----


You forgot to tell the fact that Iraq was the aggressor in the Iran- Iraq-War.

This stupid president Saddam Hussein thought he could win against Iran because Iran was in the middle of a bloody revolution and most of the excellent-US-trained iranian officers were killed or had left Iran.

He even called the operation the Second Quaddisia - named after the place where in the middle age the islamic arab hordes won the decisive battle against the iranians of the sassanid dynasty.

It was the most effective way to mobilise the hate of all iranians against - what they define - the subhuman arab hordes.
With this - and the promise of their religious leader Khomeini that every warrior who dies in battle will enter paradise - the iranian became indeed a fanatic force.

There are reports where iranian stormtroops overwhelmed iraqi defense positions by keeping pressure until the iraqi run out of ammunition. The losses of these iranians storm-units were horrendreous but they managed with this fanatism to end Saddams blitzkrieg and to kick the iraquis out.

After the catastrophical defeat of Khorramshar - where one of the most important iraqui army force was surrounded and forced to surrender Iraq lost the initiative to Iran.

So Saddams blitzkrieg became a desaster.

Only with massive military help from the USSR, France - and also the USA - Iraq was able to hold the line.

After 8 years the war ended. Not with a peace treaty but only a cease-fire. This is also the situation today : Iran and Iraq still have not officially signed a peace treaty.


After the 1st Gulf War the economy of Iraq was scattered - so they finally attacked Kuwait and the nations which had supported Saddam with military equipment came in an operation called Desert Storm, freed Kuwait  and destroyed the weapon-arsenal of the Frankenstein-monster they had built before.

This idiot Saddam even sent 150 of his fighters to Iran - expecting that they would give the planes back.

But all these planes are now in the colours of the iranian air force.

The only reason why the mad dog Saddam was not deposed after his catastrophic defeat during Desert Storm was the fact that there was no effective pro-western opposition in Iraq.
The most powerful opposition forces were the kurds (and the NATO-partner Turkey with a significant kurd-minority dont want to see them to have any important influence in the region) and the iraqui shiŽites (and the exile government of high-ranking iraqui religious leaders is in Teheran).

So it was accepted that the mad dog could continue his bloody reign.


And thats the situation today.

The only tragic thing is that many brave soldiers and inncoents on both sides had to die during Desert Storm - many other crippled or suffering from strange illnesses - while Mr. Hussein is living a life in luxury and is not caring if his people is dying because of the embargo...
« Last Edit: July 29, 2002, 01:06:18 PM by babek- »

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2002, 01:16:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by babek-
You forgot to tell the fact that Iraq was the aggressor in the Iran- Iraq-War.


 Even if it's true, so what? Why do we have to get involved? Is Iran our ally by treaty (and mutual obligation)? Is it even a democratic country?
 There are plenty of wars in the world in which US does not get involved. Especially by supporting medieval monarchy against its population.

 In this case someone up top got paid or somehow persuaded by Saudi pinces to have US fight their battles - and take the blame and hate of muslim world.

 miko

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2002, 01:18:34 PM »
Quote
Not that I'm trying to excuse the murder, but the palestinians
shouldnt throw rocks on a funeralparty in the first place.

They didn't.

This is what Ha'aretz, an Israeli newspaper has to say about the incident:

Quote
During the funeral procession for Leibovitz, who was born in the Jewish enclave in the town, calls for revenge turned into rock-throwing at Palestinians in the neighborhoods between the Tomb of the Patriarchs and the Jewish cemetery in the town.

According to settlers, they were only protecting themselves against rock-throwing by Palestinians, who were placed under curfew by the authorities before the funeral to prevent friction. Eyewitnesses, including foreign press photographers on the scene, reported that the incitement during the funeral march had quickly turned into rock-throwing and a rampage through the open market, where settlers overturned stalls and burned a house. In the chaos, extensive shooting took place, with Israel Defense Forces troops, deployed in large numbers, firing into the air and settlers shooting at buildings. The IDF said no Palestinians had been shooting.

There was extensive shooting at buildings and, according to Palestinian sources, the girl, Nizin Jamjoum, 14, was standing on the balcony of her home when she was fatally shot in the head. Her brother, Marwan, 26, was injured in the incident. At least six more Palestinians had also been injured, doctors at the city's Alia Hospital said.

The injured included Ahmed Natcha, 8, who was stabbed when a group of settlers broke into his home and smashed furniture, said the boy's father, Hussain Natcha. The boy was in stable condition, the father said.


Leibowitz, 21, was killed on Friday in the same ambush that killed three members of the Dikstein family from Psagot who were on their way to visit friends. A few months ago, Leibowitz had prepared a will that included instructions for his funeral, who should eulogize him and how he was to be buried. As one of the soldiers in his infantry unit, which attended the funeral yesterday said, "He had strong political opinions."


The "funeral procession" was an excuse for a pogrom, nothing more. What's striking is that whilst settlers were going on their muderous rampage, shooting at Palestinian homes, the IDF and police fired "into the air". When Palestinian children throw stones at IDF tanks, the IDF doesn't fire into the air, it fires at the children.

Offline babek-

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« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2002, 01:25:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d


 Even if it's true, so what? Why do we have to get involved?


Please dont misunderstand me.

I wanted to add an important fact - otherwise people who didnt knew this could win sympathies for Iraq because this small 20mio people were fighting an 8 years war against the bad 60mio iranians.

Fact is that Saddam is a mad dog who had destabilized the whole region.

But I agree that a military operation against Iraq is senseless.

It will not reduce the terroristic activities in teh world - in contrary.

Also soldiers have to die in this senseless operation.

Just look at Afghanistan.
The current situation is like during the soviet occipuation. The allied forces hold some (not all) of the major cities.
In the meantime in the rest of the land they are again fighting their clanwars and waiting for their chance to remove the puppet Karsai - like the soviet puppet before.

And already 2 of Karsais ministers have been assassinated in these inner fightings.

If we have problems to control a totally destructed Afghanistan - what will happen after a victory against Iraq?

Offline ~Caligula~

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« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2002, 03:30:54 PM »
What kind of pogrom are You talking about?

You forgot to mention that the police stopped the rampage,arrested many settlers and closed off the jewish part of Hebron.

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2002, 04:28:20 PM »
The usual kind of pogrom, although the usual victims were the perpetrators this time.

The police arrested 4 settlers, out of approx 4000 inolved in the rioting. The Jewish settlement in Hebron has not been "closed off", just extra security put in place to protect the settlers. (Like the Baruch Goldstein massacre, when 30 Arabs were murdered by another Hebron settler extremist. The Arab area was put under a 30 day curfew after that incident)

Interesting quote from the Israeli justice minister:  Justice Minister Meir Sheetrit said Monday that Hebron settlers who were found guilty of attacking police officers would be severely dealt with, Israel Radio reported

"We will deal with them with a heavy hand," said Sheetrit.

That suggests those 4 arrests were for attacking the police, not murdering Palestinians.

There is a long record of the Jewish settlers in Hebron attacking the Arab residents, under the protection of the IDF.

Offline Modas

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« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2002, 04:44:47 PM »
There was show on Dateline, 60 minutes or one of those news shows a couple of months back where they interviewed one of the head guys from one of the "groups" doing the bombing.

Now, I'm doing this from memory (which isn't very good) and the interviewer posed the question (paraphrased)

Interviewer (paraphrased): IF Palistine was given its own country, AND all the other Arab/Muslim states agreed with the decision to give Palistine its own independantly governed country, would there be peace.

His Response (paraphrased):  As long as Isreal exists, there will be no peace.

Now, tell me these f***ing people aren't nuts.  Give 'em what they want, and they are still NOT happy.  It isn't a matter of getting their own independantly governed country, they simply want to destroy Isreal.  Period.  The Isrealies are by no means angels, but how can you possible "negociate" a peace with a group of individual who think like that.

If anyone else saw this interview, please add or correct any errors.

Offline ~Caligula~

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« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2002, 05:24:18 PM »
I didn`t see that interview,but I know that`s exactly what they want.
They`ll die trying...

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2002, 05:51:05 PM »
Quote
Now, tell me these f***ing people aren't nuts. Give 'em what they want, and they are still NOT happy. It isn't a matter of getting their own independantly governed country, they simply want to destroy Isreal. Period. The Isrealies are by no means angels, but how can you possible "negociate" a peace with a group of individual who think like that.

Which group?

The idea with extremists is to marginalise them.

For example, currently the Palestinians live under military occupation, with no political rights, and few legal rights. They are subject to curfews, land siezures, detention without trial etc.

Under those circumstances, they support the extremists with their "death to Israel" slogans.

Give the Palestinians a state, where they have a chance of a normal life, not subject to Israeli military law and the depradations of extremist settlers, and few of them will be interested in the extremist crying "death to Israel".

A proportion of the Palestinians, who were born inside Israel, not in the occupied territories, have Israeli citizenship, and therefore political rights and (almost) full legal rights. These Israeli Arabs, about 800,000 of them, do not engage in terrorism.

There were peace moves underway last week. The Tamzin, and Fatah were on the verge of launching a cease fire, and even Hamas was interested in joining in. Look for Sheik Yassin's speech of a few weeks ago. A truce might well hae been imminent.

The chairman of the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee, MK Haim Ramon. says he has documents showing Fatah were due to announce a cease fire within days.

Read this: http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=191005&contrassID=2&subContrassID=5&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

Sharon new about these efforts, and went ahead and ordered a 2000lb bomb dropped on a block of apartments. Sound like he wants peace?

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2002, 05:55:29 PM »
Caligula, it isn't just me calling it a pogrom:

Col. (res.) Moshe Givati, an adviser on settlement security for Public Security Minister Uzi Landau, yesterday termed the rioting that took place during the funeral of Elazar Leibowitz, "a pogrom against the Arabs of Hebron, with no provocation on the Palestinian side."

Givati, who attended the funeral on Sunday, said he witnessed "brutal acts" and rejected absolutely explanations by the Jewish Community of Hebron Council spokesmen who said they were acting in self-defense against Palestinian stone-throwing.

Givati was in Hebron on Saturday night, in advance of the funeral for Leibowitz, an army first sergeant killed in a Palestinian ambush on Friday outside the city. The violence began already on Saturday night, he says, when a group of Jewish youths invaded a Palestinian house in the city, and burned and vandalized the possessions inside. Police and Border Patrol called to the scene arrested three of the youths, who included Leibowitz's brothers. They were released a few hours later

He said that "the Palestinians did not throw any rocks or boulders at the funeral procession. There were 20 or 30 people, who were mostly not from Hebron," he said. He said he suspects most are from the outposts in the area of Itamar and Yitzhar. "For some reason they were all carrying army-issue weapons, and they charged into the Palestinian houses.

"That's when the fracas began. I saw everything from very close range. There were long bursts of fire by the Israelis - into the air and at the houses."

It was during that fire that 14-year-old Nibin Jamjum was killed by a bullet to her head, and a Palestinian boy was stabbed. IDF sources say that these two and the other wounded - 15 Palestinians in all were reported wounded, and an equal number of police were hurt - were casualties of the Jewish violence. "Dozens of thugs, including youths from Hebron, burst into Arab houses for no reason. They broke windows, destoryed property and threw stones. These people were there for the purpose of making a pogrom," said Givati.

Soldiers, police and Border Patrol troops who arrived on the scene tried to arrest the rioters, but were attacked. "Police officers were beaten," Givati said. "I am an alumnus of the first intifada and I never saw anything like this. A dozen thugs knocked down a policeman and kicked at him."

Givati believes the police and army "were too restrained. Considering the events, much more force should have been used. We cannot allow such harm to the rule of law. It's inconceivable that soldiers and police be cursed that way." He said that settlement leaders from outside the Hebron area were also shocked by the level of violence displayed by the settlers in Hebron.

All from Ha'aretz. BTW, the four arrested settlers have now been released.

Offline Modas

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« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2002, 06:54:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nashwan


_____________________________ _________________
Which group?
_____________________________ _________________

Again, as I posted, my memory isn't that great so i don't remember the group.


_____________________________ _____________________
For example, currently the Palestinians live under military occupation, with no political rights, and few legal rights. They are subject to curfews, land siezures, detention without trial etc.
Under those circumstances, they support the extremists with their "death to Israel" slogans.
_____________________________ _______________________

Exactly my point.  When given the question about having their OWN, INDEPENDENTLY controlled country (i.e. they the palistinians run it) AND all other Mulslim countries supported it, they still would want to destroy Isreal.

"As long as Isreal exists, there can be no peace"  Seems pretty cut and dry to me.


And as my disclaimer, I'm reciting from memory so if anyone has corrections please post...

Offline ~Caligula~

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« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2002, 03:11:10 AM »
Nashwan
It is very sad indeed,but it`s still an isolated incident,while the palestinians do or try to do something awfull every day.
There would be no curfews if terror attacks would stop.
Now restrictions are lifted in many pal towns...I bet there will be some major attacks in the next couple days.One amazinhunk already snuck in a settlement and stabbed a man.
Than curfews will return and they will whine again....

Jewish extremists must be cracked down on too,but so far they cause lot less trouble and harm to others than the palestinians.