Author Topic: Fixing the FlakPanzer (Read 362 times)

Shiva · « **on:** July 29, 2002, 01:13:53 PM »

Setting aside the problem of how a 37mm gun firing an HE shell can punch through the armor of a PzKpfw IVH (with shürzen for additional side armor), there are other options to balance the FlaK vehicles against the rest of the battle.

The first option is to rip off the armor. The Germans made two FlaK conversions of their 8-ton halftrack, with an unarmored gun sitting on a platform deck behind the driver's compartment:

The SdKfz 7/1, with a 2cm FlaKvierling 38:

The SdKfz 7/2, with a 3.7cm FlaK 36 (this version has an armored crew compartment, but many were produced with the same unarmored frame as the SdKfz 7/1:

Implementing either of those vehicles, however, would require significant modelling work.

Or, rather than creating a completely new vehicle, bring out an earlier FlaK conversion of the PzKpfw IV:

The 2cm FlaKvierling 38 auf Fahrgestell Pz IV, Möbelwagen:

The 3.7cm FlaK 36 auf Fahrgestell Pz IV, Möbelwagen:

Both of these vehicles had to lower the side armor panels to create a fighting platform from which the gun could be fired. The 3.7cm version would require less modelling, as the existing 3.7cm manned AA position model could be used on the PzPkfw IV hull with some extension plates for the lowered superstructure sides. The exposed gun would allow the 'turret' to be killed as easily as the existing manned AA positions while the gun was in use (using the 'open doors' command to lower the superstructure sides, after which the gun could be used; with the sides up, the superstructure would be treated like an Ostwind turret for damage).

For a step between the existing Ostwind and the M16, there's the turreted quad-20mm version:

The 2cm FlaKvierling 38 auf Fahrgestell Pz IV, Wirbelwind:

If any of the less-protected FlaK platforms were implemented, I would suggest that the SdKfz 7 variants would be free, the Möbelwagen variants to have a perk cost around 5, and the Ostwind/Wirbelwind to have perk costs around 10. The perk values would have to be played with, but any non-zero perk value would prevent a FlaK vehicle from being casually driven to an enemy field as a 'disposable' vulching and field-destruction tool.

In the pictures above you can also see why the Ostwind is able to keep up continuous fire -- the table feed mechanism of the FlaK 36 allows additional five-round clips to be fed in as the rounds are fired, unlike the enclosed clips of the FlaKvierling 38. The US 40mm Bofors naval AA gun used a vertical slot ammunition feed, which allowed the same continuous fire.

brady · « **Reply #1 on:** July 29, 2002, 05:56:56 PM »

Other than the osty's abality to wreak havoc on a tank, Which I dont compleatly dismiss, what is your problem with the osty?

Why model a unarmored moble flack ? Basical a field gun on wheals?

IMO Vehicals in AH are extreamly easy to kill from the air.

I cant tell you how many times I lose the gun in the ostwind from a single low angle strafing from a 50cal armed plane.

I have no fear of M16, non, they die easer than a Panzer imo, they are almost worthless for air defense.

The ostwind is a playbalencing tool for the GV aspect of AH, if you limit it or rempve it GV's will fall pray to airplanes at such a rate that they will be overhunted to extinshion.

Pongo · « **Reply #2 on:** July 29, 2002, 06:32:31 PM »

And the panzer IV should be automatic firing too. cause another round is allways ready to feed no matter where it was stowed in the vehicle so the reload time should be as soon as the recoil completes and the breech can be oppend. probably about 20 rounds per minute. The loader always has a new round of the correct type ready!
there are practical considerations as to what can be accomplished in a moving vehicle taking 7? round clips and feeding them no matter the attitude of the hull/turrent and the bumpy ness of the terrain. you have one loader in that vehicle. he cannot pass ammo at a continuous rate. It inaccuratly inflates the capablilitiy of the weapon.
and it is still to resistant to attack from above and from tanks.
And I still quesion that there is room in that hull for 1000 37mm rounds.
If the only way we can make GVs work is to have one as rediculously powerful as the osti is then maybe we should not have them.

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #3 on:** July 29, 2002, 07:12:13 PM »

Ostwind also fires far too accurately on the move. The PzIV suspension was nutoriously bouncy on the move. It had 4 dual sets of wheels mounted on leaf-springs per side, no smooth modern torsion bar setup like most other German Tanks.

that also gives it an advantage in tank fighting.

brady · « **Reply #4 on:** July 29, 2002, 07:45:56 PM »

Personaly, I can't hit a thing on the move in the osty, I always stop.

Innominate · « **Reply #5 on:** July 29, 2002, 08:32:50 PM »

The problem with the flakpanzer, IMO, is only in the modeling. The open tank turret takes damage similarly to the panzer turret. A few rounds of anything going into that open turret should mean it's disabled.

That or perk the damn thing.

For KILLING aircraft, the m16 is a superior platform in all cases except when something is coming directly at you. What makes the osty so badass is that, when your field is being attacked, and the attackers have used thier bombs/rockets on structures, or other gv's, the osty is unbelivably durable. It often requires attackers to make trips just to deal with the gv's.

Pongo · « **Reply #6 on:** July 29, 2002, 09:09:18 PM »

Shiva.
did you build those kits..they are very well done.

brady · « **Reply #7 on:** July 29, 2002, 09:40:08 PM »

I beg to differ on the issue of the M16 vs the Osty, the osty is great for deflection shoting, just don't use the sight, page up and over it. The big problem with the M16 is how vunerable to aircraft it is, when you are in efective gunrange so are they, if I am out to kill a M16 I just give him a bust of cannon ahd he is toast.

I have spent a considerable amount of thime in the Ostwind, and a considerable amount of time hunting them. I am always amased at how easy it is for planes to take out my gun. low angle strafing atacks are constantly knocking out my turet gun, not multiple passes just one. If you are finding this not to be the case the osty's may be being resuplied.

Now I may be wrong but, it seams to me that the primary compaliners regarding the Uberness of the osty are those who would be just as happy if their were no GV's in the game at all, now I may be jumping to conclushions hear but I simply can not understand how people can not see what is going to hapen if the osty is perked or removed from play.

What it is to much to half to have the right plane to atack them with? or the right load out, or the right mind set?

Pooh21 · « **Reply #8 on:** July 30, 2002, 03:40:11 AM »

As far as killing osties go I use bombs, preferably 1000ers most planes carry enough for 2 osties. Plus rockets unless Im in an Il-2 I use 4, 2 more osties. Problem comes when you kill him, he pops back up, you kill him again he pops back up, eventually his sprayer will hit you ONCE, and he gets a kill. I am 100% certain that a capuchin monkey could be successful in the MA with an ostwind.

mauser · « **Reply #9 on:** July 30, 2002, 01:19:11 PM »

I remember back when the Osty was a welcome sight (when the skies were filled with Chogs). If you were defending a field in an M16 and the cons were mostly Chogs, you'd be dead very quickly. Probably the same now with Tiffs and Mossies, but they weren't around back then. The Osty gave defenders a better chance against cannon armed attack planes. However, it got abused... some folk attacked fields in them and were able to deack fields fairly easily, not to mention kill pzs. That's probably when the Osty's bad rep started. I remember one player who I could almost count on to be the lone Osty deacking and then picking off anyone trying to take off ... all by himself. That's when I learned to dive bomb. I'd take an 190A5 or A8 with the 500kg and climb to about 9-10k. Circle over the Osty and then make a near vertical dive. Sometimes he'd get me, but most of the times I'd get him unless he was moving. The critical part, I've found, is the vertical dive. More accurate for me so I can begin pullout sooner (and avoid being in range of his 37mm).

So lately I've been defending bases in the MA with the Osty once again when it's useless to lift off in a fighter... makes sense. Folks who know how to dive bomb or bait and switch are still able to at least take out the main gun pretty easily.. and without the main gun the Osty is next to useless in AAA (though I've gotten a couple kills with the hull gun when some ppl were doing low angle strafing runs). I kind of agree with brady. There isn't much sense in eliminating or perking the Osty right now. Tips on killing Ostwinds: (1) Don't do a typical low angle strafe unless you KNOW the Osty isn't pointing at you. Bait and switch is fine. (2) Similarly, low angle dive bombing also puts you at a greater risk. Use a more vertical dive and use big bombs. (3) Disable the VH... this doesn't seem to be much of a problem as far as I could see when ppl are really making an effort to capture a base.

Sometimes you can get away with low angle approaches... maybe the Osty gunner is overloaded keeping track of too many cons. But I wouldn't bet the farm on an approach like that... do it with the expectation that you'll get burned.

mauser

MrLars · « **Reply #10 on:** July 30, 2002, 01:56:47 PM »

IMO Ostys should be perked for remote spawning only. If people want to use it in an unrealisitc way then let them pay for it.
Untill the Panzers main gun becomes more effective vs. objects the Osty will be the king of the base busters.

brady · « **Reply #11 on:** July 30, 2002, 06:28:50 PM »

But how unrealistic is it? The osty was made to provide mobile airdefence to armored formation's, so when it is atacking it is being used as it was historicaly intended, covering tanks and M3's. when I am on the move with the squad or with outhers I get that m3 in as close to me in my osty as possable to cover him, or if I am in a M3 I dash from osty to osty Screaming on the Voice O mY God Hear they come Help!, same goes for tanks of course I always try and cover them if I can from air atacks.

When the battle closes to the base, the osty's rapid rate of fire (comparied to that of the Tank) chews up buildings, but it still takes almost 25% of the ostys ammo to kill a hanger and a while to that in, espichally now that the Osty's rof has been reduced.

I have seean lots of pictures and read numiours acounts of how when their was no airthreat present, AA platforms like the Ostwind were brought in to delever devestating firepower on ground targets.

Pongo · « **Reply #12 on:** July 30, 2002, 08:49:33 PM »

So far the only people that defend it are the dweebs that are addicted to it. It doesnt make the vehicle game better it makes it worse.

mauser · « **Reply #13 on:** July 30, 2002, 09:55:13 PM »

Wow Pongo...

About the Wirbelwind; although I'd prefer that over the Ostwind I think Pyro said "No" to it when it was a choice between the two.

Flakvierling otoh would probably work ok; but the same rules still apply when attacking it. Plus w/4 20mm (and they're NOT MG151/20's, instead they have higher muzzle velocity); you get similar effect of the M16 MGMC but with more lethality.

As an offensive weapon I don't like the Osty, but this is due to the experiences I had in the past with certain players. I also am not sure about it's effect on Pz's (is the ammo the same as aircraft "combo-ammo"?). But used in the defensive against aircraft with 4x20mm, 8x0.50, rockets, 1000 lb/500kg bombs, and whatever else ground attack ordnance we have - I don't really agree that it should be eliminated or perked. Sure give it a historical ammo load (if it's not historical) and if the ROF isn't either then sure change it.

mauser