Author Topic: Give it 5 minutes... (Read 1145 times)

midnight Target · « **Reply #30 on:** July 31, 2002, 03:17:14 PM »

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By Steve Hortlund ? - The absence of any evidence, the lack of a Duwimish-language text of the speech, the absence of notes bv Dr. Smith, the silence on the part of persons known to have been present during meetings between Stevens and Seattle, and the failure of the speech to appear in the official treaty proceedings create grave doubts about the accuracy of the reminiscences of Dr. Smith in 1887, some thirty-two years after the alleged episode. Thus it is impossible (without new evidence) to either confirm or deny the validity of the speech.

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From the National Archives - The absence of any contemporary evidence (the territorial newspaper at Olympia is silent about any dramatic statement by Chief Seattle in 1855), the lack of a Duwimish-language text of the speech, the absence of notes bv Dr. Smith, the silence on the part of persons known to have been present during meetings between Stevens and Seattle, and the failure of the speech to appear in the official treaty proceedings create grave doubts about the accuracy of the reminiscences of Dr. Smith in 1887, some thirty-two years after the alleged episode. Thus it is impossible (unless new evidence is forthcoming) to either confirm or deny the validity of this powerful and persuasive message placed in the mouth of an Indian sachem. As of now, the verdict must be that of the ancient Scottish jurisprudence: "Not proven."

Makes me wonder where your words start and the ones you cut and paste end Hortlund.

There is more:

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Written by Steve Hortlund - Oh, and the source for the version I presented: A 1932 pamphlet by John M. Rich

The Rich pamphlet used the version originally printed in 1887 and attributed to Dr. Smith. It begins like this:"Yonder sky that has wept tears of compassion upon our fathers for centuries untold."

Hortlunds "version" starts like this: "How can you buy or sell the sky, the warmth of the land? If we do not own the freshness of the air and the sparkle of the water, how can you buy them?"

Oh my! Did I forget that Steve said that we will never know? That the discussion is finished? Was that because you didn't want someone to see how you are cut and pasting your orations Hortlund? Sad.

And I would venture to guess my bellybutton is bigger, only because it is in proportion to the rest of my body you sad little man!

Hortlund · « **Reply #31 on:** July 31, 2002, 03:40:20 PM »

Not really. The reason why I said our discussion was over is because there is no answer to be found, and I know from experience that trying to argue with you when there is no answer is about as rewarding as repeatedly hitting yourself in the head with a hammer.

As for the rest...why would I care about that? What's important is what the text says no? Or is this where you tell us that it is forbidden to quote text without proper footnotes on this board? I mean it would be one thing if I said "lookie here what I have written" and then pasted something from someone else...at least that is my opinion.

Why the attitude today btw?

Thrawn · « **Reply #32 on:** July 31, 2002, 03:41:04 PM »

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Originally posted by Ripsnort

Well, we sorta do, your a drunk, we know that.

I would respond, but as the your post is one big blur, I wouldn't know what to say.

PS: My supervisor has relented on the issue of whether or not I'm allowed to bring a 40 of scotch to work every day. Unfortunately I have to share it with him.

hic

Chit....forgot to post.

midnight Target · « **Reply #33 on:** July 31, 2002, 03:56:15 PM »

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Originally posted by Hortlund
Not really. The reason why I said our discussion was over is because there is no answer to be found, and I know from experience that trying to argue with you when there is no answer is about as rewarding as repeatedly hitting yourself in the head with a hammer.

Yet the answer is there. I posted the line you claim to have quoted and the line that you actually quoted. The one you quoted was from the Movie written in 1970. sheesh!

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As for the rest...why would I care about that? What's important is what the text says no? Or is this where you tell us that it is forbidden to quote text without proper footnotes on this board? I mean it would be one thing if I said "lookie here what I have written" and then pasted something from someone else...at least that is my opinion.

I would never presume to limit what is said on these boards with statements like "shut up". I do feel however, that using someone elses words and passing them off as your own is just not right. Had you even quoted the National Archive article verbatum and then forgotten the quotation marks I would understand. What you did however was to alter the quote slightly then post it as your own. Not illegal, but certainly bad form in any forum. Don't you agree?

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Why the attitude today btw?

I said your research was wrong. You told me to shut up. Who exactly has the attitude?

Elfenwolf · « **Reply #34 on:** July 31, 2002, 03:56:18 PM »

(sigh) And so, what starts off as one of the few posts in O'Club that isn't about war, politics, general nastiness or the evils of people quickly degenerates into yet another string of name calling, insults and general bad will towards each other.

Who cares if the story is true or not? The spirit of that message is what's important, not who wrote it. I was inspired if, for no other reason, Hortlund sounded like a liberal. C'mon you guys, save your insults for the Ann Colter thread. Let's talk about nature on this one. (BTW, I'm not wearing any pants right now.)

midnight Target · « **Reply #35 on:** July 31, 2002, 03:58:51 PM »

Nature's great.... OK!?

Now... back to the bashing!!

Pongo · « **Reply #36 on:** July 31, 2002, 04:17:16 PM »

Hortland
If you knew some of the controversy behind the speach you should have lead with that if you wanted people to read it with an open mind.
Why get so upset at peoples opinions, you asked for their opinions didnt you?
Dont credit too much to the spirituality of north american natives.

Hortlund · « **Reply #37 on:** July 31, 2002, 04:28:07 PM »

Elf, you are completely right. (Now there is a rare sentence from me) And it is really sad I think. I didnt post that quote to get suckered into some "who wrote it and when"-debate. I wrote it so people might actually take the time and think about the words.

Then I lost my temper as usual...

Midnight, Im just gonna say this one last time. We will never know what Chief Seattle really said. Now can you please drop it?
And you have no idea whatsoever where I found the quote or where it is from. You may THINK you do, but you cannot possibly know. Accept that as a fact, because it is the truth.

As for the critique of my writing and/or my use of quotes. I disagree. IMO what you are saying is correct for RL stuff, I dont think it is the same here on a BB. Although I dont think I have used someone elses words and passed them off as my own. At least that is my opinion.

As I said, it would be a different situation if I were to say "look at what I wrote" and then just rip a quote off someone else.
If I take a quote from someone, delete parts of it that I feel is irrelevant or stuff I disagree with, and then post it here, should I add a footnote or not? But it would be worse if I took a quote, changed it and then attributed it to the original writer...right? Because then I would be trying to put other words in his mouth.

And this is the internet remember...normal rules do not apply here. Everyone says normal rules apply here, but everyone also knows that they dont.

If you are of another opinion, fine, flame away.

Hortlund · « **Reply #38 on:** July 31, 2002, 04:30:32 PM »

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Originally posted by Pongo
Hortland
If you knew some of the controversy behind the speach you should have lead with that if you wanted people to read it with an open mind.
Why get so upset at peoples opinions, you asked for their opinions didnt you?
Dont credit too much to the spirituality of north american natives.

Ah hello Pongo (Pongo is of the opinion that I am a nazi, he likes to insult me alot and call me names in other threads)

Bye Pongo.

Pongo · « **Reply #39 on:** July 31, 2002, 05:50:44 PM »

I definalty think your lose with the truth...tending towards revisionism..

midnight Target · « **Reply #40 on:** July 31, 2002, 07:42:20 PM »

You are right Steve on 2 counts.

1. Those are beautiful words that the author of that screenplay wrote.

2. We'll never know exactly what Chief Seattle said. We do know however that he didn't say those words.

As to the cut and paste thing. Just my feeling on the matter. If it doesn't bother you then it doesn't. (You will burn in hell though

)

Gnight Steve, end of the month, busy busy.

Hortlund · « **Reply #41 on:** August 01, 2002, 02:31:14 AM »

If we dont know what he said, how could we possibly know what he didnt say?

Maniac · « **Reply #42 on:** August 01, 2002, 07:17:40 AM »

Shit, Steve please take your ball and go home...

Hortlund · « **Reply #43 on:** August 01, 2002, 08:10:14 AM »

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Originally posted by Maniac
Shit, Steve please take your ball and go home...

?

midnight Target · « **Reply #44 on:** August 01, 2002, 09:45:10 AM »

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Originally posted by Hortlund
If we dont know what he said, how could we possibly know what he didnt say?

Well Steve, (and I'm laughing while I write this) I suppose he could have said the exact words that sreenwriter wrote. The chances of that being true are just a little better than the proverbial million monkeys typing Shakespeare. But you go ahead and believe whatever you want.