Author Topic: Howard Huges Designed the Zero  (Read 1171 times)

Offline Holden McGroin

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Howard Huges Designed the Zero
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2002, 10:45:17 PM »
Couldn't attach a file in edit mode...
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Offline Karnak

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Howard Huges Designed the Zero
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2002, 10:54:02 PM »
Jeez.

The much debunked idea that Japan simply created copies of Western aircraft and made them out of rice paper just will not die.

Jiro Horikoshi designed the Zero, or rahter led the design team that did so.

The material the Japanese used for their aircraft structures and skins were the best in the world, even at the end.  The materials in their engines and gear were not the best, to say the least.

I have seen two insinuations in as many days on this board that the Japanese just copied others.  In this place, of all places, people should know that those ideas stem from pre-war racial prejudices.  The fact that they stick around is merely a testamount to the ability of ill informed people to pass on their misinformation to other ill informed people.


The Japanese engineers are no more idea thiefs than were any of the American or European engineers.  They all learn their craft in colleges in Europe and the United States.  Those Japanese engineers-to-be took classes right along with American and European engineers-to-be.  Then, just as theie Western counterparts did, they designed aircraft.  There is nothing fancy about it.  The reason that aircraft end up looking similar is because there are solutions that work and solutions that don't.  The ones that do get used.  Those solutions are found and copied back and forth between everybody.

Hughes didn't design the Zero.
The Emily was not based on the Pan Am Clipper.
The Spitfire was not a copy of the He112.
The Fw190 was not inspired by the Zero.
The F8F is not an Americanized Fw190.
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Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2002, 11:03:39 PM »
"The Spitfire was not a copy of the He112."

Correct! The Spitfire wing is however beased/copy/whatever of the He70 wing. The Spitfire wing designer admitted this so I dont really care what your insecurities lead you to think.

:p

Offline BUG_EAF322

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« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2002, 11:31:44 PM »
No GRUNHERZ

Karnak is always right just because it is so

:rolleyes:

Japan picked up industrializing pretty fast

Yamamoto was a formerly UK marine cadet

Japan is extremely good in copying IMHO

and they make it better to

Take Tamiya they are the finest models, very precise

this must sound very offending

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2002, 12:46:19 AM »
GRUN,

In all my years of studing the Spit I have never seen such a statement by Mitchell.  I would love to know your source.

Frankly, I'd be somewhat surprised if he ever saw an He112.

He112 first flight:
September, 1935

Spitfire first flight:
March, 1936

Mitchell and his team must have worked incradibly fast to copy the He112 wing and build a prototype in order to fly it only 6 months after the He112 first flew.

Further, the fact that Mitchell died in June, 1937 it seems unlikely that he would have made that sort of comment.

Without a solid source I have to call BS on this.

You are most welcome to provide the source and change my mind though.
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Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2002, 01:34:18 AM »
What are you talking about the He112 for? :confused:

Look up the He70. Thats what they copied/ studied/based/whatever the Spitfire wing on....

I really dont have the energy to look this up for you because I doubt  you would let yourself accept this. Anyway the Spitfire wing designer or leader of the design team said so, he might or might not have been Mitchell.

As a side note it's widely reported the entire British aviation design community in particular went apeshit crazy over this plane when they saw it and were simply amazed at its aerodynamic qualities and design.

He 70 of 1932:

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2002, 01:46:25 AM »
Should I even bother?

THE LEGENDARY SPITFIRE
By Wolfdietrich Hoeveler
She was the aeroplane built in the largest numbers in Great Britain, defended the country in the "Battle of Britain" against the German Air Force and thus founded her legendary fame on the British Isles. Even today she is the star of every air show in Britain: the Supermarine Spitfire.

Pilots simply loved the Spitfire. She was not an easy plane to fly, but was regarded as reliable and especially agile and a great performer during air battles. Although several versions existed, she was mostly used as either a single seat fighter or for reconnaissance purposes. The Royal Air Force used other planes for air-ground tasks.

The creator of this successful fighter plane was Reginald J. Mitchell, Chief Designer with Supermarine Aviation, which was a sub-company of the Vickers Group from 1928 onwards. Since 1913 Supermarine, which was situated near Southampton, mainly built seaplanes.

In the 1920s Mitchell was responsible for the construction of the record-breaking planes S.5, S.6 and S.6B, which were awarded the Schneider-Trophy for the world's fastest aircraft in 1927, 1929 and 1931.Towards the end of 1931 the S.6B set the world speed record of 656km/h.

In the same year, Supermarine applied for the contract to build a new fighter plane to the specification F.7/30 by the British Ministry of Aviation with their design 244. The first Supermarine design was a far cry from the Spitfire, which followed later, and did not fulfil the Ministry's expectations. Gloster's bid was accepted with their Gladiator.

However, Mitchell and his team had gained important experience as far as the construction of land planes was concerned, and the company was still interested in building a fighter for the Royal Air Force. Towards the end of 1934 the Board of Directors at Vickers finally asked Mitchell to develop a new aircraft. Vickers was to provide the funding. The plane, which was armed with four machine guns, was to receive Rolls-Royce's brand new P.V.12 Engine, which was named "Merlin" when series production started. In April 1935 it flew for the first time in a Hawker Hart.

Once the mock-up of Type 300 was completed at the end of April 1935, officials and designers were unanimous, when they viewed the model: It was to be a great success.

Some alterations were necessary and the Ministry of Aviation quickly made the money available. Amongst other things the wing design was to be changed. The resulting characteristic elliptical shape produced very thin wings, which were still able to hold the fuselage and weapons, and could withstand the strains of air battle. It was planned to arm this aircraft with eight American Browning-MG's.

During constructions great emphasis was placed on reducing air resistance. Extremely smooth surfaces were created. Rivets were not going to mar the performance of this aircraft.

In achieving this, Supermarine engineers took on board results, made available by the German designer Ernst Heinkel. While the Aérosalon 1932 took place in Paris, Mitchell wrote a letter to Heinkel with the following question: "Was the skin of the aircraft exhibited in Paris made of metal or was plywood used to cover the fuselage?" He also showed an interest in British research about the He 70 with new English aircraft engines: "We found to our consternation that despite its vast dimensions your plane is markedly faster than our fighters."

And after this exchange a Rolls-Royce Representative did get in touch with Heinkel in Warnemünde. He suggested the Germans to purchase an He 70 in order to fit her with the new 810 h.p. Rolls-Royce engine Kestrel V and offer her globally. There simply would be no faster plane on earth.

Heinkel was not averse to this proposal and suggested a deal: an He 70 in exchange for the licensing rights of the Kestrel V. The London Ministry of Aviation was soon in agreement, however the new rulers in Berlin were not prepared to give their consent to this idea. This is why Rolls Royce bought a Heinkel He 70, which reached a speed of 420km/h with the Kestrel engine.

The aircraft was checked over thoroughly by the Royal Aircraft Establishment in Farnborough. And this is when Supermarine became interested. The elliptical wing shape of the He-70 convinced even Mitchell.

A prototype was constructed in Woolston near Southampton, the same site where the seaplanes were built. Since there was no runway in Woolston, the aircraft had to be transported to Eastleigh. On 5 March 1936 the time had come: Vickers' leading Test Pilot Summers took the K5054 on its maiden flight. The prototype was fitted with a tail-skid and a wooden twin-bladed propeller.

The plane was thoroughly tested at Martlesham Heath in July 1936, and at that time reached a top speed of 567km/h. The only prototype of the Spitfire was used to test several versions of the Merlin engine. After 151 hours' flying time the plane crashed during touch down in Farnborough on 4 September 1939.

In the meantime production of the Spitfire Mk I had started. Only three months after the maiden flight, Supermarine received the first order for 310 aircraft. A second order for 200 aircraft was placed in 1938 one year after Mitchell had passed away at the early age of 42. When war broke out in September 1939, 2,160 Spitfires had been ordered.

Initially many manufacturers were involved in the production of the Spitfire. When the production plant in Southampton was badly damaged after heavy bombing by the Germans in September 1940, manufacturing was transferred to other places. New plants for the final assembly of the aircraft were set up in Castle Bromwich near Birmingham and in Yeovilton at the Westland Factory. Cunliffe-Owen also constructed hundreds of Spitfires and Seafires at a later stage.

The first Mk I's were initially used for tests. In August 1938 No 19 Squadron in Duxford was the first RAF Flight to receive their first Spitfires. No 66 followed and was also constructed in Duxford. When war broke out, six Flights used the new aircraft.

A Spitfire had her first aerial victory on 16 October 1939, when one belonging to No 603 Squadron, which was stationed in Turnhouse near Edinburgh, shot down a Ju 88A in the Firth of Forth. The Junker was attacking warships at the time.

During the Battle of Britain only 19 Flights used the Spitfire. Most units operated with Hawker Hurricanes. Still, half of the losses suffered by German fighters were due to the Spitfire. The reason was that the Hurricane, which was by far inferior to the Spitfire and the Bf 109, concentrated her efforts on fighting attacking bombers. Between August 1940 and May 1941 the RAF lost 1,172 aircraft in the Battle of Britain. 402 of these were Spitfires. The Luftwaffe had to lament the loss of 2,000 aircraft, among them 610 Bf 109.

During the course of the war more powerful versions of the Spitfire were built. From October 1939 the Mk I and Mk II were followed by versions of the Mk V series, of which altogether about 6,500 aircraft were constructed. The main difference between them was the more powerful Merlin-45-Engine. A new wing shape with straight wing ends, which guaranteed improved agility at lower altitudes and varying wing weaponry was also introduced. For air battles at different altitudes optimised Spitfire variations, i.e. with different engine variations, were supplied. From the end of 1942 they could be distinguished by additional abbreviations:
   * F. = fighter
   *L.F. = fighter-bomber for deployment in low and medium altitudes
   * H.F = high altitude fighter
   * F.R. = photo reconnaissance plane

Although the Merlin Engine gave excellent performance, Rolls Royce improved it further. Towards the end of the 1930's Rolls Royce worked on a new engine, the 1,700 h.p. Griffon-Engine. Two Spitfires, (Mk IV), were fitted with this engine and a four-bladed propeller.

At first this combination went into production as Mk XII and then as Mk XIV into series production. The last version to go into action before the end of the war in Europe was the Mk 21. After the end of the war production of the F. Mk 24 was stopped. The last Spitfires flew until 1951 with the Royal Auxiliary Air Force.

The Spitfire also flew in foreign air forces. Obviously many units belonging to the Commonwealth States like Canada, New Zealand and Australia were equipped with this aircraft. However, even Russia and the USA flew the Spitfire. And it was used after the war in countries like Israel and Burma.

Of the over 20,000 that were built, only a few remain. They are the stars of air shows and air races today.

Offline Don

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« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2002, 09:53:06 AM »
>>I have seen two insinuations in as many days on this board that the Japanese just copied others<<

I read the book that ZeroPing suggested earlier.  The Jiro guy was the primary designer of the zero.
I also learned that Japan was not the only country that would "adapt" a/c designs. A lot of that was going on during the years prior to WW2, especially during the early 30's. At the time aircraft companies were competing for contracts all over the world and were not restricted to their own countries. The Japanese would purchase 1 or 2 a/c from the west and evaluate them. If facets of their design fit into their design philosophy, they would adapt the design for their own. The zero came as such a surprise to the west because of the hubris of the western industrial nations. They did not think the Japanese designers were smart enough and original enough to come up with an industry leading design.
The result we all know, the zero kicked bellybutton for a long time until the western nations tooled up and got serious. Even at that, they followed their own design philosophy and created E-fighters rather than lighter TnB fiters.
But that Jiro guy was a genius and hardworking.

Offline SC-Sp00k

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« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2002, 10:09:33 AM »
Perhaps I missed it?

Whatever happened to the He70 then?

Offline straffo

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« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2002, 10:20:58 AM »
GRUN help me !!

Should I consider the He112 as one of the prettiest plane of the creation like the 109 or the 190 ?

Or should I consider it as a primitive spitfeur abomination ?



Straffo

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Offline Turbot

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« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2002, 10:21:42 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
Jeez.

The much debunked idea that Japan simply created copies of Western aircraft and made them out of rice paper just will not die.

Jiro Horikoshi designed the Zero, or rahter led the design team that did so.

The material the Japanese used for their aircraft structures and skins were the best in the world, even at the end.  The materials in their engines and gear were not the best, to say the least.

I have seen two insinuations in as many days on this board that the Japanese just copied others.  In this place, of all places, people should know that those ideas stem from pre-war racial prejudices.  The fact that they stick around is merely a testamount to the ability of ill informed people to pass on their misinformation to other ill informed people.


The Japanese engineers are no more idea thiefs than were any of the American or European engineers.  They all learn their craft in colleges in Europe and the United States.  Those Japanese engineers-to-be took classes right along with American and European engineers-to-be.  Then, just as theie Western counterparts did, they designed aircraft.  There is nothing fancy about it.  The reason that aircraft end up looking similar is because there are solutions that work and solutions that don't.  The ones that do get used.  Those solutions are found and copied back and forth between everybody.

Hughes didn't design the Zero.
The Emily was not based on the Pan Am Clipper.
The Spitfire was not a copy of the He112.
The Fw190 was not inspired by the Zero.
The F8F is not an Americanized Fw190.


"In fact, during the war, Allied intelligence repeatedly suggested that the Zero was a copy of various other types of foreign aircraft, such as the Howard Hughes 1935 air racer and particularly the the Vought 143, a one-off prototype fighter that the Japanese purchased. This was a stretch, since the Vought 143 really didn't look that much like a Zero and was a detestable aircraft in the first place. The idea that a fine machine like the Zero was a copy of it strained all logic. According to Hirokoshi, the influence of the Vought 143 on the Zero was limited to the design of the landing gear.

The idea that the Zero was a copy of a Western aircraft appears to have been mostly chauvinism, based on the preconception, which still persists today, that the Japanese are only capable of copying other people's ideas. In fact, although the Japanese do not hesitate to copy good ideas developed elsewhere, the Zero proved they could make their own contributions as well.

In the case of the Zero, Jiro Hirokoshi later provided an articulate and detailed argument to reject that it was a copy of any foreign aircraft. True, the engine was derived from the Pratt & Whitney Twin Wasp, the propeller was a Hamilton Standard design, the flight instruments were copies or license builds of foreign designs, and the guns were all basically licensed foreign designs as well, but such technology trading was common in the design of aircraft of other nations."


(from a very nicely done and footnoted article) http://www.vectorsite.net/avzero.html

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2002, 10:53:00 AM »
"I'm confident that what he intended was more along the lines of "creating a congressional interest in" as opposed to simply "creating.""

I am confident that you are creating spin.
lazs

Offline 28sweep

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« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2002, 11:12:04 AM »
I agree w/ the above above post (Turbot) but times have changed a bit.  I work in the auto-industry (big three company) as an Enigneer and I must say that it is no secret that the Japanese have stayed one-if not two steps ahead of us for twenty years.  As a result- U.S. Engineers in this industry seem obsessed with copying the Japanese. New designs and manufacturing systems are often scrutinized to see if they would pass muster in a Japanese company before being implemented.   System's that have woked well in the U.S. are dismantled in favor of unproven one's that often don't prove to be sound in the U.S.  I find it ironic that a nation w/ such a reputation is actually copied itself much more than many realize- in this industry and in many many others: steel, shipping, electronics, etc. etc.....In fact-Porsche-on the verge of bankruptcy-turned to former Toyota executives to overhaul it manufacturing systems and now owes it's very survival to them- but yet this reputation of copying and lack of innovation still persists................

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2002, 11:30:59 AM »
straffo:

I always thought the He112 looked too heavy and fat in its shapes to me a true LW fighter.

He100 was prettier.

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2002, 11:41:25 AM »
"In the case of the Zero, Jiro Hirokoshi later provided an articulate and detailed argument to reject that it was a copy of any foreign aircraft. True, the engine was derived from the Pratt & Whitney Twin Wasp, the propeller was a Hamilton Standard design, the flight instruments were copies or license builds of foreign designs, and the guns were all basically licensed foreign designs as well, but such technology trading was common in the design of aircraft of other nations."
"

exactly.
such copying was the norm not the exception.