War on Drugs

[hblair]

Midnight, that's easy, drugs are illegal so the corrupted gov't officials can get the kickbacks from the druglords. That's the only reason. What happened to towd anyway?

[midnight Target]

Originally posted by hblair
What happened to towd anyway?

? huh?

[Karnak]

For the record, I don't use drugs and have no wish too.  If I wanted to I could go buy some right now, that is how ineffective the War on Drugs has been.  Legal or illegal I won't use them.

I believe that drugs should be legalized for the good of my country.  Most violent drug crime is about controling distribution.  The ammount of crime caused by people who are actually high on drugs is not significant.  Further, legalizing drugs would cause the prices to plumment which would mitigate the typical user crime of theft, which he does to pay for the massively overpriced drugs.  Another benefit would be lowered taxes as the number of people we are keeping in prison would be tremendously reduced.  Because of the War on Drugs we have the largest prison population of any nation in the world.  This is a horribly expensive thing to maintain.  Yet another benefit would be the ability to tax the sales of these drugs, further reducing our income tax levels.

The idea that drug use will skyrocket if leagalized is laughable and easily debunked.
[list=1]

• Drugs are readily available now, criminalization is no barrier to drug use if somebody wants to use drugs.
• Alcohol consumption increased during Prohibition.[/list=1]
  
  Prohibition actually provides a case study of the effects of the War on Drugs.  The violence of turf wars, the inceased usage of the controlled substance, increased price of the controlled substance and the need for Government to obtain funding from other sources.
  
  Further still, the War on Drugs has had a hugely negative impact on all of our civil rights.
  
  Ever hear about the doctor who save his money for decades to buy a yacht? Finally got it and less than a year later the Coast Guard found a joint in the cabin of one of his crew members. Boom! His decades of work were undone as the cops confiscated the yacht under the accusation that it was being used in drug trafficing. Innocent until proven guilty? No siree, not here. The doctor wasn't being jailed, so no problem about not having a trial. What, the doctor wants his boat, or at least the value of the boat, back? Prove your innocence is the system here. Not provide reasonable doubt. PROVE your innocence.
  
  That is just one example.
  
  Another is the criminalization of African American males. That devastates whole communities. Strips fathers from the children and ends the economic possiblities of families. The War on Drugs is the single biggest reason why our inner cites are filled with hopless people that have no way to make a living but turn to the drug trade.
  
  
  Calling the War on Drugs a failure is way to soft on it. It is an abject horror and disaster on our culture and our people.
  
  We the people...

[Wlfgng]

the 'war' on drugs isn't working.. they're just all moving up here !  bastages.

as for Pot being good/bad for you.. well it's bad.  But only about as bad as ciggies and booze.

I agree with HB about kids and families.  It's all fine and well if someone wants to pollute themselves, but when it crosses over to someone else.. especially young impressionable ones... BAD.

(slaps those types silly)

I also agree that putting pot users in jail of any type is a joke.  We're letting rapists, murderers, etc out of prision because there isn't enough room.. c'mon.

What kills me is the addiction factor.  I can't tell you how many losers flock to the ski resort, end up broke and can't pay rent or buy food, but end up paying for pot.  Losers.

[SC-Sp00k]

I'm not hearing a good arguement from the otherside. Like the pro-Cannabis sites ive been reading on the net the last couple of days to get a handle on your thinking, you excuse the use of Cannabis because of the availability of Alcohol and Cigarettes. Weird. This one single entity appears to be dominant in the Pro-Cannabis arguement.  3 different consumable items. 2 of which have nothing to do with the arguement of the 3rd.  If you want to argue Pro Cannabis use then you have to do so with it standing up on its own. Noone has done that here yet.

Originally posted by Karnak
I believe that drugs should be legalized for the good of my country.  Most violent drug crime is about controling distribution.

No. Most violent drug crime results from the User wanting the next hit. Be it a Home Invasion to steal from a dealer, a Domestic with the spouse who spent the last $20.00 feeding the kids or the addict who confronts you in your own house in the dead of night with a screwdriver in his/her hand.[/b]

The ammount of crime caused by people who are actually high on drugs is not significant.

Wrong. Tho I agree that Cannabis effected users are a lower percentage. However Drugs are the centrepiece in the majority of Property related Crime. That includes Cannabis users.

Further, legalizing drugs would cause the prices to plumment which would mitigate the typical user crime of theft, which he does to pay for the massively overpriced drugs.  Another benefit would be lowered taxes as the number of people we are keeping in prison would be tremendously reduced.  Because of the War on Drugs we have the largest prison population of any nation in the world.  This is a horribly expensive thing to maintain.  Yet another benefit would be the ability to tax the sales of these drugs, further reducing our income tax levels.

Here is a valid point and its good to see someone actually raising sensible arguement. (Yes im aware you dont advocate drug use).
This should be explored further. Its is however part of the aftermath. To win on education as SW has brought up, it needs to be done at Child level.  Tho I disagree that we should be showing life saving procedures when exhibiting Drug information commercials.  That is a life skill. Part of the school education on this subject matter, should always include symptoms and effects.

The idea that drug use will skyrocket if leagalized is laughable and easily debunked.
[list=1]

• Drugs are readily available now, criminalization is no barrier to drug use if somebody wants to use drugs.
• Alcohol consumption increased during Prohibition.[/list=1][/b]
  
  The Netherlands study has shown that Drug consumption DOES increase. Its is neither laughable, nor has it been debunked by anyone other that Pro-Cannabis groups in their disinformation articles.
  
  Prohibition actually provides a case study of the effects of the War on Drugs.  The violence of turf wars, the inceased usage of the controlled substance, increased price of the controlled substance and the need for Government to obtain funding from other sources.
  
  Further still, the War on Drugs has had a hugely negative impact on all of our civil rights.
  
  Those sources whatever name they give are, at the end of the day, narrowed down to Me and You.
  
  Sacrifices are made and necessary to combat negative issues and save us from ourselves. This has always been the way of things. Without sacrifice, there is no victory.  The war on Terrorism is in "Principle" a classic example of this.
  
  
  Ever hear about the doctor who save his money for decades to buy a yacht? Finally got it and less than a year later the Coast Guard found a joint in the cabin of one of his crew members. Boom! His decades of work were undone as the cops confiscated the yacht under the accusation that it was being used in drug trafficing. Innocent until proven guilty? No siree, not here. The doctor wasn't being jailed, so no problem about not having a trial. What, the doctor wants his boat, or at least the value of the boat, back? Prove your innocence is the system here. Not provide reasonable doubt. PROVE your innocence.
  
  The bonehead got what he deserves. The "poor" Doctor? LOL who saves for years for his little boat is a member of our society in a position of trust.  His level of accountability is higher than average Jo-Smo. (Not that we ever see these miscreants held accountable to often :( )  He knew the rules.  His boat goes to fighting the war.  Its called Proceeds of Crime in this Country. Imho, it should be enforced far more strongly.
  
  
  Another is the criminalization of African American males. That devastates whole communities. Strips fathers from the children and ends the economic possiblities of families. The War on Drugs is the single biggest reason why our inner cites are filled with hopless people that have no way to make a living but turn to the drug trade.
  
  Imho, your inner cities are filled with hopeless people because they never bothered to get off their ar*es and do something for themselves.  Victims of their own environment, family history and peer group pressure.  Social issues much bigger than this thread could possibly touch on. At the end of the day tho, the majority of these people (note majority not all) are victims of themselves. Prove to me, how the War on Drugs has brought their worlds crashing down. (Hint: Be prepared for a long reply).
  
  
  Calling the War on Drugs a failure is way to soft on it. It is an abject horror and disaster on our culture and our people.
  
  Without offence, a touch of Hollywood dramatics here. Winning? No. Failing? Maybe.  Give me an alternative that works and ill back it.

[Sandman]

I didn't know Australia had a drug war...

[SC-Sp00k]

We just dont advertise it nearly as well as you do and our borders are protected by sea.  We live in Asia.  You think you have drugs in your part of the world alone? Come to the Asiatic where the hippies come in all sizes and colours.

Drugs are a world wide problem.  Your expenditure is higher, but then you have the money and resources we do not. Currently our Customs and border protection is the largest in our history.  Our International Crime fighting budget is at an all time high. Liason officers in Asiatic countries are run off their feet handling intelligence information concerning Drug running that ultimately lends itself to off shore and international Water surveillance and arrest. Specially manned interdiction teams in newly made patrol boats, patrol our waters to the north for immigrants, illegal fishermen and drugs.  Our intelligence branches work in combination with your intelligence branches as do many parts of the western world in these times when it comes to combating drugs.

Your intelligence groups influence Foriegn groups in your part of the world as do ours.  Australia is as committed to the fight against Drugs as the US.  We are not as Vocal about it, nor do we tend to be as arguementative about it.   We have our Pro-Drug use and Civil Libertian fanatics working actively against the fight as well.  Our resources are smaller. Our problem as large and our Commitment as Strong.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by SC-Sp00k
We just dont advertise it nearly as well as you do and our borders are protected by sea.  We live in Asia.  You think you have drugs in your part of the world alone?

Not at all. I know drugs are everywhere. Just wondering if Australia had the same silly policy we do.

We have our Pro-Drug use and Civil Libertian fanatics working actively against the fight as well.

Good for them.

[AKSWulfe]

I'm not hearing a good arguement from the otherside. Like the pro-Cannabis sites ive been reading on the net the last couple of days to get a handle on your thinking, you excuse the use of Cannabis because of the availability of Alcohol and Cigarettes. Weird. This one single entity appears to be dominant in the Pro-Cannabis arguement.  3 different consumable items. 2 of which have nothing to do with the arguement of the 3rd.  If you want to argue Pro Cannabis use then you have to do so with it standing up on its own. Noone has done that here yet.

That's not what this thread is about, it's about the War on Drugs.

However, the purpose of comparing wacky tobacky to alcohol and cigarettes/cigars is to refute the argument that marijuana is more damaging than either of those two- it ain't.

You can't get addicted to marijuana, I don't care how many friends you have that smoke all the time, I don't care how many dope heads you've busted, I don't care if you can't put down that joint- it ain't a substance you can get addicted to. Ain't no way, no how scientifically. Mentally dependent, OTOH, yes... but then again, so is tobacky and alkeehall.

Basically, the point of comparing alcohol to tobacco is to give you peeps who have no clue a basis for you to come to understand the wacky green stuff to so you can understand the argument.

If you haven't tried it, what else could I compare it to so you can better understand where I'm coming from?

Then again, trying to tell you the reasons for legalizing marijuana is pretty much a waste of my time- no matter how much information I can put up here.

How's this- some people like to unwind after work with a beer, or maybe pop back some "legal" Over The Counter drug that'll relax their mind and muscles, or some people just steer clear of all that and sit around with their friends and have pillow talk. I dunno, whatever you like to do is up to you. So why the fek do you feel justified in telling me I can't go home and light up a joint after a bad day at work? You tell ME why I shouldn't be allowed to smoke marijuana, I shouldn't have to explain to you why I enjoy it.. I just do. I'm not killing anyone, I don't break into someone elses house to get $20 for a dub sack, I don't commit any crimes- the only crime I commit is getting high, it's no different than getting a buzz off of beer in terms of it's effects.

But because someone else told you it's wrong, it's gotta be wrong, right?
-SW

[Sandman]

But AKSwulfe... marijuana smokers are morally reprehensible!

[Morgoth]

I resent your saying I have a prehensile tail.

Ooops, read that wrong. Must be stoned.

[SC-Sp00k]

Originally posted by AKSWulfe
That's not what this thread is about, it's about the War on Drugs.  

Then why is alcohol and smokes continually brought up as an excuse? To justify the War, you have the analyse its purpose. Why we have to fight it in the first place. Why it has a market. etc. Hence the broadening of the thread.

However, the purpose of comparing wacky tobacky to alcohol and cigarettes/cigars is to refute the argument that marijuana is more damaging than either of those two- it ain't.

In your humble opinion. I share a completely different humble opinion..

You can't get addicted to marijuana, I don't care how many friends you have that smoke all the time, I don't care how many dope heads you've busted, I don't care if you can't put down that joint- it ain't a substance you can get addicted to. Ain't no way, no how scientifically. Mentally dependent, OTOH, yes... but then again, so is tobacky and alkeehall.


Your drawing a line in the sand between Mental dependancy and addiction and telling me the marginal difference makes it alright?


Basically, the point of comparing alcohol to tobacco is to give you peeps who have no clue a basis for you to come to understand the wacky green stuff to so you can understand the argument.

I understand it perfectly.


If you haven't tried it, what else could I compare it to so you can better understand where I'm coming from?

Your assuming i've never tried it.

Then again, trying to tell you the reasons for legalizing marijuana is pretty much a waste of my time- no matter how much information I can put up here.

I can see why information is bad.  But then again, wasnt the cry for information the purpose of your arguement, not so many posts ago?  Selective information only appears acceptable. Truth vs BS.

How's this- some people like to unwind after work with a beer, or maybe pop back some "legal" Over The Counter drug that'll relax their mind and muscles, or some people just steer clear of all that and sit around with their friends and have pillow talk. I dunno, whatever you like to do is up to you. So why the fek do you feel justified in telling me I can't go home and light up a joint after a bad day at work? You tell ME why I shouldn't be allowed to smoke marijuana, I shouldn't have to explain to you why I enjoy it.. I just do. I'm not killing anyone, I don't break into someone elses house to get $20 for a dub sack, I don't commit any crimes- the only crime I commit is getting high, it's no different than getting a buzz off of beer in terms of it's effects.

I'm not telling you not to do anything. I'm telling you WHY you shouldnt. Its all overtime for me and no skin off my nose.

But because someone else told you it's wrong, it's gotta be wrong, right?

You know me well enough by now SW to know that I rarely listen to anybody and my own opinions are generally formed on my own and well entrenched, even in the face of overwhelming popular opinion. I am rarely wrong

[john9001]

i just wanna say drugs are  ahh  like   youknow   ahh  like i mean   yeah

[AKSWulfe]

Then why is alcohol and smokes continually brought up as an excuse? To justify the War, you have the analyse its purpose. Why we have to fight it in the first place. Why it has a market. etc. Hence the broadening of the thread.

As an excuse? You mean like "You drink and smoke cigarettes, why are you telling me I can't smoke marijuana?"

If that's the case, just look at that sentence. You (used figuratively) are telling me that I shouldn't smoke.. because... I assume it's because it's bad for me (no argument there).. so by that same token, how can you tell me that I can't do it? Alcohol and tobacco are equally as bad. If you don't believe me, read the next paragraph.

In your humble opinion. I share a completely different humble opinion..

Actually, not my opinion- straight up facts. But don't take it from me, take it from federally sanctioned tests. Here...

Cannabis (includes Marijuana, THC, Hashish and Hash Oil) Effects of Overdose: Anxiety, paranoia, loss of concentration, slower moevements, time distortion.

Uh.... that's dangerous?

Depressants (includes Alcohol, Barbituates, Methqalone, Tranquilizers) Effects of Overdose: Shallow respiration, cold and clammy skin, dialated pupils, weak and rapid pulse, coma, possible death

Errr...... I've actually seen that very last grouping of words happen to someone very close to me due to alcoholism. So don't ever tell me marijuana is more dangerous than alcohol "in my opinion"... it ain't my opinion, it's the straight up facts.

I can see why information is bad. But then again, wasnt the cry for information the purpose of your arguement, not so many posts ago? Selective information only appears acceptable. Truth vs BS.

What? I've got loads of information, but since you have already admitted that you won't take anyone's word, then I naturally assumed posting information from doctors and other government funded studies would be a waste of my time. Oh, and yeah, all of the information I have agrees with each other. Marijuana ain't good for you, but it's no worse than alcohol or cigarettes in terms of the damage done to your body or in terms of it's psychoactive effects on the human brain.

I'm not telling you not to do anything. I'm telling you WHY you shouldnt. Its all overtime for me and no skin off my nose.

I know perfectly well WHY I shouldn't do it. Hell man, if you really think about it- day to day life isn't exactly what you SHOULD do. I work in DC, the threat of another terrorist attack is very real. I could die anyday, does that mean I shouldn't go to work? Fatal traffic accidents happen daily, especially in the DC metro area- does that mean I shouldn't drive anymore? I could walk into a 7-Eleven at the wrong place at the wrong time and get a bullet into my chest due to a robbery taking place, does this mean I shouldn't go to 7-Eleven?

Everyday life can result in death or mysery, does this mean I should just give up on life because... well toejam, I'm gonna die anyway?

You know me well enough by now SW to know that I rarely listen to anybody and my own opinions are generally formed on my own and well entrenched despite overwhelming popular opinion.

True, but when your line of work is to defend laws, no matter how silly they are, you will more than likely gravitate towards the laws being right... no matter how well of an argument someone could put forth. I won't fault you for that, I just hope you'll realize what I'm saying isn't something I put together after 4 bong hits, a joint, a Bob Marley CD and watching "Half Baked"... what I have come to learn is through many sources, ranging from the government to rehab centers.. you'd think they would have nothing but lies and propoganda, but surprisingly this information isn't biased.
-SW

[SC-Sp00k]

Originally posted by AKSWulfe
Then why is alcohol and smokes continually brought up as an excuse? To justify the War, you have the analyse its purpose. Why we have to fight it in the first place. Why it has a market. etc. Hence the broadening of the thread.

As an excuse? You mean like "You drink and smoke cigarettes, why are you telling me I can't smoke marijuana?"

Again, im not telling you you cant do anything. You make up your own mind there. Much the same as any Smoker or Drinker. At present Cannabis is against the law. You decide whether you obey it or not. Entirely your decision at the end of the day. Your risks are your own.

If that's the case, just look at that sentence. You (used figuratively) are telling me that I shouldn't smoke.. because... I assume it's because it's bad for me (no argument there).. so by that same token, how can you tell me that I can't do it? Alcohol and tobacco are equally as bad. If you don't believe me, read the next paragraph.

No arguement there either. A little open to interpretation tho. I read that and believe it actually supports my arguement

In your humble opinion. I share a completely different humble opinion..

Actually, not my opinion- straight up facts. But don't take it from me, take it from federally sanctioned tests. Here...

I openly invite you to present your facts for discussion. I shall enjoy it

Cannabis (includes Marijuana, THC, Hashish and Hash Oil) Effects of Overdose: Anxiety, paranoia, loss of concentration, slower moevements, time distortion.

Uh.... that's dangerous?

LOL. No. Thats good for you.  SW, What do you think?

Depressants (includes Alcohol, Barbituates, Methqalone, Tranquilizers) Effects of Overdose: Shallow respiration, cold and clammy skin, dialated pupils, weak and rapid pulse, coma, possible death

Errr...... I've actually seen that very last grouping of words happen to someone very close to me due to alcoholism. So don't ever tell me marijuana is more dangerous than alcohol "in my opinion"... it ain't my opinion, it's the straight up facts.

Never have I said, "Cannabis is more dangerous than Alcohol". Never have I advocated Alcohol or Tobacco and presented any arguement that they are a lesser or greater evil than Marijuana. Its very simple to understand my arguement....

2 Wrongs dont make a Dope plant.

I can see why information is bad. But then again, wasnt the cry for information the purpose of your arguement, not so many posts ago? Selective information only appears acceptable. Truth vs BS.

What? I've got loads of information, but since you have already admitted that you won't take anyone's word, then I naturally assumed posting information from doctors and other government funded studies would be a waste of my time. Oh, and yeah, all of the information I have agrees with each other. Marijuana ain't good for you, but it's no worse than alcohol or cigarettes in terms of the damage done to your body or in terms of it's psychoactive effects on the human brain.

Facts vs Facts. Experts vs Experts. Who do we believe? Essentially tho, what you just posted above, supports everthing I have been saying.  We apparently agree

I'm not telling you not to do anything. I'm telling you WHY you shouldnt. Its all overtime for me and no skin off my nose.

I know perfectly well WHY I shouldn't do it. Hell man, if you really think about it- day to day life isn't exactly what you SHOULD do. I work in DC, the threat of another terrorist attack is very real. I could die anyday, does that mean I shouldn't go to work? Fatal traffic accidents happen daily, especially in the DC metro area- does that mean I shouldn't drive anymore? I could walk into a 7-Eleven at the wrong place at the wrong time and get a bullet into my chest due to a robbery taking place, does this mean I shouldn't go to 7-Eleven?

Sounds like the Paranoia kicking in.

I know that stepping out front of the number 9 bus is bad for me also. I CHOOSE not to do it for health reasons.

Everyday life can result in death or mysery, does this mean I should just give up on life because... well toejam, I'm gonna die anyway?

Lets all light up a cone and shove needles in our arms.

You know me well enough by now SW to know that I rarely listen to anybody and my own opinions are generally formed on my own and well entrenched despite overwhelming popular opinion.

True, but when your line of work is to defend laws, no matter how silly they are, you will more than likely gravitate towards the laws being right... no matter how well of an argument someone could put forth. I won't fault you for that, I just hope you'll realize what I'm saying isn't something I put together after 4 bong hits, a joint, a Bob Marley CD and watching "Half Baked"... what I have come to learn is through many sources, ranging from the government to rehab centers.. you'd think they would have nothing but lies and propoganda, but surprisingly this information isn't biased.

Firstly, whilst biased toward your own arguement, most of your reasoning is sensible and well constructed. I dont think your spacey when you post, despite whatever I think of your reasoning.

Secondly, there are a vast many laws, I do not agree with and would champion the cause of change at the first opportunity. The legalisation of Cannabis however isnt one of them.

Thirdly, imho, some of those Rehab centres are run by greater Whacko's than the people who attend them for treatment. As for the information, they disseminate.  Some of its good. Some of its bad.  They have their own agendas and biased opinions like anyone else.