The 50 cal. Buff Gun Laser Myth, Part 3: Slaved Gun Positions and External Views:

[HocBao]

Slaved guns? I didn't know the bombers had slaved guns(I am new to AH). How do you invoke them? Are they automatic? Will a slaved gun position fire if a human is manning another gun?

Thanks for the post, Eskimo. It has been very informative for me.

Hoc

[eskimo2]

Pepe:
It's 1943.
I am the tail gunner and you are the top gunner in a B-17.  A 109 is making an attack on us from 5:00 high.  I am leading and firing at where I hope to kill him before he kills me (and you).
Now, where again are you shooting?  And, why?

HocBao:
-Your primary trigger (finger trigger or key "F") fires all guns that can phisically point at a target.
-Your secondary trigger (thumb button or key "B") fires only the gun that you are in.

eskimo

[hazed-]

Originally posted by eskimo2:

Imagine 3 duck hunters.
One hunts alone and has a double barrel shotgun that fires both rounds at once.
The other 2 have single shot guns (of the same gauge) and hunt together.
If you were a duck, who would you rather fly past?


eskimo

[ 09-27-2001: Message edited by: eskimo2 ]

what a question! ok so all hunters are equal?
i have feathers for armour and no weapons!
er id stay on my nest!    


I think the answer myself to the gun thing is to make other non controlled positions fire with less accuracy or like in many other games that have tried to tackle this problem make other gunners use more ammo up. eg the other gunners continue to fire for 1/2 a second and waste a bit of ammo.

Let me put this to you eskimo:

your arguement:
youre a single pilot,you cant see out of each position, or man all guns at once.and have to fly solo.
so we see concessions:
1. bombers have 360degree view with F3 at any time.
2. all guns that can fire at the area you are firing at fire automatically.
3. guns have increased effectiveness over slightly longer range
ok so far?
well whats different for the average fighter pilot?
generally they fly alone not in squadrons as in RL so do we have ai controlled wingmen? of course not, but he still has to face a bomber that has concessions.Its almost impossible to creep up on a bomber if the buff uses F3,its very difficult to approach a bomber so that it causes the gunner to switch positions,you have the added problem of flying as well as shooting,and your guns have less effective range.(especially if you fly 50cal planes)

For me personally I think i can live with the present concessions. But, I can certainly understand peoples problems with the bombers.Yes EVEN laz's!! shock!

Would it really be so terrible to have the bombers the way they were?
This game HAS ALREADY an EXCELLENT feature.
We can join as gunners!!! but do we ever use it? know why? because its TOO EASY to gun yourself.you dont have to switch positions much, you can just rudder turn and keep them in sight of your present position.
Why dont we make it so that a 2 man bomber team is more effective than 1 man super flyer/gunner.
Its claimed people who love bombers wont fly bombers if this was changed.I say BS. Id fly them.If i was so bothered about being shot down i wouldnt fly ju88s would i?
I think bombers should be set up and used just like they were.
If you went alone you needed to be fast and hide.If you went in a small group you needed a big escort, a larger group needed even more escort.BUT dont forget that was versus an organised defence of SQUADRONS! not the spread out flying we see.

eskimo you have said to keep this thread on the subject of guns and veiws and i have tried but I have to say this, Im a big fan of WW2 bombers.I fly them a lot and i feel this:
the guns are incredibly accurate.I dont need a gunner as i can fly and gun at the same time.I can hit a fly's arse with a 1000lb bomb from 25-35,000 feet!     , I can take off with 25% fuel and fly to an enemy base and back and close 1-3 hangers and kill all acks if im left alone,sometimes even after im attacked.my guns have added effectiveness! bonus!
only downers? takes time to climb and if wounded as a gunner it affects pilot too.

not really such a bad set up is it? now do the same for the fighter pilot fan facing a bomber alone.

swings and roundabouts....

I say make guns normal,make the buffs a little more durable.(averaged 22 20mm rounds to bring down b17s, they examined downed b17s)as it is now im not sure but i think its less than that in AH (its 22 AVERAGE remember).remove rudder control in gun positions but allow the player to set a bank angle from cockpit(Making gunning and flying seperate) and make bombs slightly less accurate but increase blast radius a little.

Im pretty sure that it would produce the same results in terms of who flew them.Hell we may start to see more cooperation.After all isnt that what online play is for?
I say if we ARE true fans of the bombers we would fly them.I fly them mostly trying to avoid fighter contact which is the idea! getting caught and shot down is just part of the game.I dont want stuff added so i can have an unrealistic or unfair advantage in any area.Its like a cheat mode    

[ 09-28-2001: Message edited by: hazed- ]

[Pepe]

Eskimo,

We wold be firing at the same target, but we wouldn't be firing at the same spot in the air. Altho I concede differences would not be great, you would lead different than me, we would be thinking where the target is going to be, what manouver it will perform...the difference would be in the range of the 10 to 40 yards, especially with target in close range, but still is the difference between a hit and a miss. Eventually , we would lead the same, aim the same for a second, and, for that second the perfect convergence would be achieved. But those would be random, instant, and scarce moments.

We would be firing together, but our bullets wouldn't go together.

Cheers,

Pepe

[eskimo2]

Pepe:
Sounds good, nice responce!
-Assuming that English is a second language for you, I am very impressed by your ability to express your ideas in written English. (If only more Americans could do the same...   )
<S>

Perhaps we need a feature that automatically adjusts the convergence of the slave gun to match the range of the target...

eskimo

[Tac]

"We would be firing together, but our bullets wouldn't go together"

Yep. Guns now fire at the same spot..all of them. So when one hits, all of them hit. The fact that the other gun's allegedly fire "parallel" creates a shotgun effect. Since all guns ALSO fire at the SAME TIME (not at different timing as would player manned guns) you get complete coverage of lead in a 40ft area.

Not to mention that if a buff had 3 human players in the guns firing at ONE target, their aims are much different, they lead differently, fire at different times. Human gunners would have more chances to hit, but each hit wont deliver brutal damage (as it would be 1-2 .50's hitting the fighter).

Ive said it before, if each gun fired at a random spot in a 10 or 15 degree cone from where the human gunner is aiming this may simulate different gunners shooting at the same target but not at the same spot. It would increase chance of hitting the con, but it wont mean the con will be hit by all guns at the same time with that shotgun effect.

[Pepe]

Thks for your kind words, Eskimo  

As for the convergence, I don't think perfect convergence would be right, as it would worsen the problem, IMO. I think we can state that in a RL environment it would be impoossible that all gunners fire continuously:

a) with Perfect convergence or
b) Perfectly parallel

If a single fighter attacks a single buff, and all gunners target it, all of the guns brought to bear would fire more or less where the fighter will be. The effect of this would be (roughly) a "double cone" of bullets more or less in front of the fighter's flight pattern. The more expert the gunners are, the narrower & thicker that shape would be, and the closer that double cone's vortexes would be to the fighter. But even with real hot shots, the shape, density and extension of that double cone would vary on a constant basis, as posted.

IMHO, assuming that only one person is at gun stations, aiming a single gun position, that position would be the "lead" one, and the slaved ones should have to fire "with respect" to the relative aim of the "lead" one. What I mean with this (dunno if it's possible at all) is that only the real gunner would have a "perfect" aiming. The slaved ones would fire against the selected target, but with differences in terms of convergence, lead, etc. and this differences would have to vary slightly, to give that "fuzzy" area where the average gunner would be firing at any given time.

Some times (especially when target is very close) that way of firing would favour extensive damage, as more guns are firing at convergence. Some times (especially at long range shots), as guns eventually lose aim for a moment, the cone would spread and be less dense, favouring isolated pings on the target, but being more difficult to deliver critical damage.

Cheers,

Pepe