Author Topic: AN idea on giving AH bombers a role...... (Read 1060 times)

hazed- · « **on:** August 10, 2002, 07:23:09 AM »

ok i had an idea which may well be acceptable to HTC and bomberpilots an fighter pilots alike.

this is what i thought up.

As you know now there is a probelm in that the bombers and their pilots want to use the historic 'salvo' type bombing but even with the new 3 aircraft formations flying them to a base only to miss a hard target by the shortest distance and feel very impotent as a fighting force is really frustrating.

the other side of the coin is players who like to fly fighters having their fun ruined by a single player laying waste to a base like we used to have happen in say a lancaster.

so we see Bomber pilots requesting strategic targets like huge cities that can then be given a reason for being hit, so as to make bombing them actually worthwhile.So we have the two groups locking horns.One says too much influence on the game , one says too little.

well how about we introduce a new target. we make a large circular area around the airbase texture 'tile' and including it that can be bombed and the number or weight of bombs dropped on it is kept 'score of' much like the overall damage score of a factory complex.
when a base has received a huge number of hits it only then becomes unusable.
we would have 2 ways to close a base. either hit every hanger with precision strikes (jabo's etc) or place so much tonnage of bombs on the entire area so as to make it unusable.
This would be nearer to the way a base was closed in the real war. It would mean that as a bomber pilot you would still try very hard to hit the hangers etc (as it would still be the best way to close a base) but you would be 'adding' to your countries chances even if you get near misses.
with enough tonnage the base would start to be unusable.
This would simulate a heavy bombardment (cratering ,pot holeing of the base and surrounding flat ground),You could give a readout on a base like a tonnage% so the enemy is constantly aware on the amount of damage inflicted.

I realise this might sound impossible to keep track of but could not HTC basically keep track of how many bombs are dropped ina defined ring around a base and remove their number from a tonnage total? perhaps an invisible tile placed over the bases that behaves the same as would any hanger etc.Once a set limit is reached the base closes.
Id want this tonnage total to be absolutely huge (@50,000 lbs?)so that you would need many many drops but at least those that miss hangers etc would feel they are pushing a capture forward still.

laz might complain this is a concession to bombers but i feel its quite the oppersite. If anyone thinks that dropping 14 1000lbers all over an airfeild would have no affect on its opperational status they would have be crazy!.As it is in AH now you could drop a million tonnes and if they miss hangers they have no effect at all.This leads to a real 'whats the point' feeling which i find is ruining the old fun of bombing and if anything is a concession to players like laz .

well its just a thought like i said but what do you think? could it be used?

SKurj · « **Reply #1 on:** August 10, 2002, 07:59:23 AM »

oh oh oh +) i've heard something like this before.....

click my sig +)

SKurj

Revvin · « **Reply #2 on:** August 10, 2002, 08:04:12 AM »

Hi Hazed,
This sounds like the 'Tonnage on Target' feature from Warbirds. As a long time bomber pilot and CO of a bomber squadron I know full well the potential of the bombsight we have in AH right now and I think the current setup is fine. I don't want to keep harping on about it but those who complain they cannot hit anything are still using the mentality left over from v1.09 bombing. The new system is a lot more historical and requires pilots to use proper salvo/delay and speed to gain good results and it's not impossible to hit two or more hangars on one pass depending on the type of field being attacked. While my own squad tend to hit strategic targets we do also attack fields and I really don't see the problem.

What you propose may help the new guys but would make bombing incredibly simplistic and not very historical. At the moment to hit a field you need to co-ordinate either with other bombers or heavy fighters to finish the job you start with the bombers. Part of the skill of bombing now IMHO is not only the formation flying but the correct selection of salvo and delay and also picking the best lines across the field to drop your ord.

In the following picture I used a salvo of 14 with a 0.70 delay flying at 160 indicated:

At a full field it is quite conceivable to destroy this field with 5 bombers which really is not that much. To use a tonnage on target system takes away the skill of picking out these salvo's, delays and lines of attack and I would be very much against such a system.

Bombers need to practise, my squad did and got the system working fine for us within a few nights practise. If anything now we have to spend more time in the norden sight I think it's time to introduce autogunners for bombers.

GunnerCAF · « **Reply #3 on:** August 10, 2002, 10:57:47 AM »

Well said Revvin! I have been trying different loadouts, salvos and delays to see what works good. Last night I took out a FH at 22K (heading N with crosswind) with a salvo of 6 500lb, delay .7 . This is a half load of a B17. This was a small field, 3 FH. I would think that 2 B17 formations can take down FHs on a small field. Maybe 3 or 4 could take down everything.

Is there any way to get a good screenshot of the ground from a film? If not, it would be a nice addition to the film viewer.

Gunner

Revvin · « **Reply #4 on:** August 10, 2002, 11:05:39 AM »

Don't think there is GunnerCAF, the shot I posted above was done by slewing the bombsight back over target by re-enterign the calibration mode which is very handy for BDA. I'd also like to point out that where the first crater is shown is where my crosshair was when I pressed the release button and this drop was made from around 20k above the target as I rarely fly any lower than around 17k to allow myself some small protection from fighters.

Chairboy · « **Reply #5 on:** August 10, 2002, 11:21:32 AM »

Of note, there seems to be a consistent response to bomber posts that 'The new method is more historically accurate' to which I'd like to respond that while it is, there were also usually over a hundred bombers attacking at once, even if it was a small target.

Either make some concessions for that for us bomber folk, or essentially push us out of the game altogether. I understand that alternative is attractive to many fighter pilots, something that saddens me.

BenDover · « **Reply #6 on:** August 10, 2002, 11:24:45 AM »

how about droping on runways?

add crator damage!

Revvin · « **Reply #7 on:** August 10, 2002, 12:08:00 PM »

Quote

Either make some concessions for that for us bomber folk, or essentially push us out of the game altogether. I understand that alternative is attractive to many fighter pilots, something that saddens me.

5 bombers could close fighter and bomber ops from a large field I think that's concession enough?

Bendover> Yes crater damage is needed, in the above picture one of those runways would be closed and with a slight deviation I could have closed two.

Furball · « **Reply #8 on:** August 10, 2002, 01:53:52 PM »

just posted an idea in this forum that might apply to 'hazed'idea, go check it out! sorry only read this post afterwards.

i think it may be appropriate to 'Hazed' idea, carpet bomb a base to make it unuseable with a large formation of bombers.

GunnerCAF · « **Reply #9 on:** August 10, 2002, 02:03:15 PM »

Quote

Don't think there is GunnerCAF, the shot I posted above was done by slewing the bombsight back over target by re-enterign the calibration mode which is very handy for BDA.

Thanks Revvin, I will have to remember to take a screen capture. I also go back to calibration mode to see where the bombs hit.

If the film viewer had a view to see your bomb drops would be a good tool for bomber pilots to review their flights. Right now in the film viewer, the bombsight view points forward and is not movable. All other views center your aircraft and when you zoom the aircraft is in the way.

Bombing now has a learning cure. Most everyone is in a squad. You need to learn it, teach others, then put up some bomber groups. Just think of what a bomber group of 10 could do to a two fields in a short time. A little planning and good timing... sounds like a fun mission. Just think what 30 squads could do?

Gunner

hazed- · « **Reply #10 on:** August 11, 2002, 11:42:43 AM »

its not unrealistic for bases to be closed by carpet bombing in WW2.
have you seen those pictures of bases in germany that were bombed? it really does look like the surface of the moon.
in fact isnt it more realistic to close a base due to overall damage rather than taking out 3 hangers? In the BoB hangers were destroyed but planes still flew out of those bases.but when the concrete runways of the jets in germany were hit and continually hit, late in 1945, they were eventually shut down.

the tonnage on target could be in addition to the present capture method.

players who still consider it fair that bombers use salvo methods but have to hit a minimum of 3 pin point targets can carry on doing it their way. but players who want to do it the other way, ie grab 20 players who all drop on the whole area can do it their way.

ive done missions with numbers but they can still fail because most are not proficient enough to hit keys targets. you can fly over with 12 or more bombers and only take out 1 building. Beleive me ive seen it happen.Those players who participate for the fun of large formations then realise they have had no affect and dont bother joining the next run, and who can blame them?

Ive started to try out the lead bomber drop with all following releasing at the same time with a bit of success here and there but most tell me their bombs harmlessly peppered the field or ran between targets.Is it really fair on these players to give them no reward for hitting the base? it doesnt have to be much, just something for the effort.

like i said before the tonnage can be set high.

Revvin · « **Reply #11 on:** August 11, 2002, 12:22:23 PM »

The way it is now is already geared towards carpet bombing and is more realistic in the fact that you have to use salvo and delays with the correct speed to get good results. With tonnage on target you simply have to point your plane in the general vicinity of the airfield and drop a full salvo with zero delay and have all your bombs drop in the same location and this is not only less historically correct but also moving back towards a more arcade like bomber setup.

In WW2 allied command didn’t just say 'hey drop where you like in the general vicinity guys' they gave the formations targets to hit such as factory complexes, saturation bombing of airfields. If the bombers did not destroy these targets then they had to go back again and do it all over again. Allied command did not say 'ah well chaps you got the bombs in the general area its ok we'll pretend the target is dead'

My own squad has also practised 'dropping on lead' and it works rather well as long as the bombers fly close formation which we do and is not too much to ask when the bomber only has to fly the plane and not calibrate his norden. With 5 or 6 bombers you could make a mess of a large field, with calibration you can flatten it with good use of salvo and delay settings.

The new bomber systems are a huge improvement and something that guys who regularly fly bombers wanted, to change it back you may as well take away all the work that went into the v1.10 bombsight and give us back the boring arcadey old bombsight.

To change to tonnage on target now would be like snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

Mitsu · « **Reply #12 on:** August 11, 2002, 12:41:26 PM »

I already mastered level-bombing.

Mitsu · « **Reply #13 on:** August 11, 2002, 12:43:15 PM »

Innominate · « **Reply #14 on:** August 11, 2002, 01:04:59 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Revvin

5 bombers could close fighter and bomber ops from a large field I think that's concession enough?

The problem:
5 jabos kill fighters, and vehicles at a field, kill the town, vulch, and wait for a goon to show up. They can do this faster than a bomber simply carpetbombing the field.

The solution:
Bombers need to have some way to inflict more damage than the average jabo against certain targets. Those targets need to have an immediate noticable(but not crippling) effect on the game.