Author Topic: What is needed to make a Historical Arena succeed  (Read 593 times)

Offline Buzzbait

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What is needed to make a Historical Arena succeed
« on: August 09, 2001, 02:39:00 PM »
S! all

It`s great to see an effort made to accomadate the more historically minded flyers, but at the same time, from the descriptions given of the new Arena, it seems that it is almost guaranteed to fail.

Now before you all start flaming me, consider several givens :

All of us fly these Sims for fun.

If we are not having fun, we stop.

We are prepared to deal with some restrictions to that fun in the interests of historicity, but there is a limit.


Right now the CA is set up in such a way that those who fly primarily for fun will not be interested.  And this is primarily because of the map.

With these considerations in mind, here is my analysis of what is needed for a HA, (or Combat Arena) to succeed.

#1  Most important of all, you need a good map.  That map must cater to both those who don`t mind a lot of flying before they get to their combat, and those who want to be able to jump into the fight early.

There are several existing maps which fit this criteria.  The Norway map is not one of them.

The English Channel/France and Western Germany map is a good choice.  You have an area where the opposing airfields are very close, ie. the narrow channel between Dover and Calais.  If the Arena is set to August 1944, then you can give the Allies a series of bases in Normandy.  (restrict the aircraft based there to Typhoons and Spitfires)  With this type of map, you can satisfy both the semi-furballer`s as well as the more hardcore historical types.  Restricting the use of drop tanks by Allied aircraft, in particular the Spitfire and Typhoon, will mean those who want to fly the longer range missions will be using the historical aircraft, ie. P-51`s, P-47`s and P-38`s.

This map needs to be populated by appropriate targets.  London, Paris, Lille, Antwerp, the cities in the Ruhr, these all should have at least one and perhaps several city and factory tiles in order to give each side a lot of targets.  There should be ports, (CV and PT boat generating)  at the larger coastal cities as well as Coastal guns at these locations.   There should also be a lot of Rail lines and train movement on the map, running between the Cities/Factories and the front.  Supply for fields and ports should be dependent on the running of the trains.

#2   On this map you need an AI manned front line.  Right now you don`t have an AI strongpoint in existence which can be used to define the areas controlled by the respective sides.  This would need to be a priority to create.  Each strongpoint should include heavy weapons similar to the existing Coastal guns, as well as combination AA/MG emplacements similar to that you find at Airfields.  A connect line of opposing strongpoints would make up the front.  These strongpoints would not fire at each other, but only at Human controlled vehicles and aircraft.

Until you get an AI strongpoint, the front line should be defined by a series of Vehicle bases, grouped closer together than they are now.

If the only point where the sides are facing off is in Normandy, then the Front line area would be a relatively small area.

Each day at 3 :00am EST there would be reset, with a new set of strongpoints being created to match the territory controlled by each side.

#3  You need a few more vehicles to make the sides historically correct.  The addition of the following would be the minimum required, but would allow for historical matchups :

M4A3 Sherman with 75mm main gun and gyroscope for the Allies

SdKpwagen 251 Halftrack for the German

That would give each side a tank, halftrack and AA vehicle.


#4  You need to have `IN FLIGHT`  starts for Bombers and their escorts.

Historically the B17, B24 and Lancaster Groups formed up over the skies of England.  They climbed to 20,000 ft, rendezvoused with their fighter escort, and then headed out over the North Sea towards Germany.  The Germans did the same thing in 1940 with their JU88 formations.

Players should be allowed to go into a waiting room for Bomber/Escort missions.  After 2 or more players have joined, when they are in agreement, they should be spawned in flight, at 20,000 feet at one of a series of predetermined start points.  Players will be able to discuss doing this on the server, then all exit and go to the waiting room, and then spawn together.  Fuel should be subtracted from the starting loadout dependent on the starting point.


#5   You need some slight changes to the Task forces, which should not be difficult to adapt.

a) Destroyer Task Forces :  The standard TF minus Cruiser and CV.

b) Cruiser Task Force :  The Standard TF with CV replaced by another Cruiser.

c) Battleship Task Force :  The Standard TF with CV replaced by a Battleship.


#6   Coastal Convoys.   The map needs more targets.  The creation of  AI controlled coastal convoys, made up of smaller lightly armed merchant vessels escorted by a few destroyers and Flakships.

These would run on the German side in the Scheldt Esctuary, Holland and Bay of Biscay area, and for the Allies, through the English channel between Portsmouth and London, and London and Norwich area.

These convoys could be adaptions of the existing TF`s with perhaps two destroyers and the remainder of the force being merchant vessels.

These Coastal convoys would make good targets for both aircraft and Naval forces including PT Boats.

#7   You need victory conditions:

Simple ones could be for the Allies to take Paris, or the Germans to drive the Allied Bridgehead back into the sea.  The Allies should be able to make additional landings with LVT forces at other places along the coast.


All of the existing Allied and German aircraft could be used with this type of map with a setting of August `44.  However, there should be restrictions on the use of Tempests and FW190D`s.  Tempests should be prohibited from using drop tanks and limited to bases in England.  (They were based there to combat the V1 raids)   They should also be restricted by a perk system or by limited numbers available per day.  FW190D`s should be limited by numbers or a perk system too.


There are several other good maps which would work for a HA.  The Mediterranean map is one.  If the scenario was set to July `43 with the Allies just having landed in Sicily, then you would have a good selection of aircraft available, (including the Italians)  and a small land front, (Sicily) and airfields relatively close together.  (Malta and Sicily)  You would also have Naval task forces for both sides.  (Italian and British)   Planes would be :

Spit V, IX
Seafire
P-47D11
P-38L  (well, P-38H actually, but gotta make P-38 guys happy)
B-26
B-17
Lancaster
TBM
F6F
DC-3

109F4
109G2
109G6
190A5
190F
JU88
MC202
MC205
TBM  (Stuka Substitute with loadout restricted to 1 500 kg bomb, no torpedos)
DC-3  (Ju-52 sub)

All Vehicles

The Phillipines map would also work in an HA, although the plane selection is not as good.

A6M5
KI-61
NiK2
JU88   (Japanese medium sub)
TBM  (Japanese torpedo sub)
DC-3  (Japanese had identical plane)

P-38L
P-47D-25
P-47D-30
D-Hog
TBM
F6F
B-26
B-17
DC-3

All vehicles


Another fun map would be the Leningrad/Baltic front in `43 with planes available being :

LA-5
Spit V
Spit IX
B-26
IL-2
DC-3

109F4
109G2
109G6
190A5
JU88
TBM  (Stuka Sub)
DC-3  (Ju-52 sub)

All Vehicles


With a few small changes, a HA could become the place of preference for all AH flyers.

Offline Nifty

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What is needed to make a Historical Arena succeed
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2001, 02:46:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Buzzbait:
With a few small changes, a HA could become the place of preference for all AH flyers.

Great ideas, but you might take flak from the above assumption.   ;)
proud member of the 332nd Flying Mongrels, noses in the wind since 1997.

Offline Thunder

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What is needed to make a Historical Arena succeed
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2001, 02:51:00 PM »
Well if we are going to be historical than there should be night. And if pilots are off duty we should model drinking and women in the Arena! These are new suggestions but it may provide the "Real Answer" of what is really needed to make the HA succeed! Ask "Fatty" he'll stear ya right!   :D

Thunder

[ 08-09-2001: Message edited by: Thunder ]
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Offline popeye

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What is needed to make a Historical Arena succeed
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2001, 03:24:00 PM »
I believe HTC has already stated that terrains and plane sets in the CA will change periodically.

I haven't tried the CA yet, but from my limited experience in the WB HA, one of the most critical issues is side balancing.  I agree with the suggestion that side switching time limitation needs to be drastically reduced.  Then, it's up to the players to either make it fun, or go for the easy gang bang kills.

[ 08-09-2001: Message edited by: popeye ]
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Offline Fatty

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What is needed to make a Historical Arena succeed
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2001, 03:33:00 PM »
Yeah!  I want my british nurses!

Offline AKDejaVu

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What is needed to make a Historical Arena succeed
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2001, 04:28:00 PM »
Buzzbait,

Do you play AH currently?  Or have you beyond a two week trial a few months ago?

AKDejaVu

Offline Buzzbait

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What is needed to make a Historical Arena succeed
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2001, 04:40:00 PM »
S! DV

Funny how the cheerleaders always jump all over any serious suggestions.

Perhaps considering the proposed ideas might be a better solution.

Of course the fact that I don`t play it makes  me inelegible to comment, right?

And you are right, I don`t subscribe.  Although I go through spells of flying in HTH when I want to see how the product has improved.

I have flown in all the Flight Sims on the market, both Boxed and Online.  I flew in the original AH Beta, and flew a two week period last year.

My opinion of AH remains the same:

Superb aircraft modelling

Very limited World War II Simulation

I`d subscribe if I thought I was actually going to get something resembling a HA.  What has been put up now is not in my opinion a real HA.

For that reason I made my suggestions.

Offline AKDejaVu

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What is needed to make a Historical Arena succeed
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2001, 04:50:00 PM »
Buzzbait,

Your views on the game asside...

 
Quote
With a few small changes, a HA could become the place of preference for all AH flyers.

Please, explain to me how you are even remotely qualified to make this statement.

AKDejaVu

Offline Duckwing6

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What is needed to make a Historical Arena succeed
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2001, 04:56:00 PM »
1 think i don't like at all is in-flight start ..

else there's good suggestions.

DW6

Offline Buzzbait

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What is needed to make a Historical Arena succeed
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2001, 05:22:00 PM »
S! DV

I can`t tell anyone how to fly or where.

But if the HA is challenging and fun, then I think people will fly there.  That is the point of my suggestions.

As far as being qualified?  Last time I looked this board wasn`t being censored to reflect a particular point of view.

Unless you think that is your role...   ;)

Offline AKDejaVu

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What is needed to make a Historical Arena succeed
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2001, 05:59:00 PM »
you are entitled to your opinion.  Just don't come of as if it is on behalf of this community.

You do not fly with this community.  You do not know this community.  You think that reading this bbs makes you part of it.  You are wrong.  This bbs is not the AH community.

Your proposals are generic "more realism means more customers" suggestions.  Some will like them, some will not.  That's why there are two arenas.  They aren't trying to apease everyone with one solution... that's just not possible.

AKDejaVu

Offline gatt

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What is needed to make a Historical Arena succeed
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2001, 06:02:00 PM »
I strongly believe that an effort towards a 1941-42 a/c planeset will bring fresh air, *interesting* scenarios and many (old) players (back). The North-African and the Russian theatres are still uncovered by any big online sims. Miopia?
"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

Offline pdog_109

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What is needed to make a Historical Arena succeed
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2001, 06:27:00 PM »
Very intresting buzzbait. I don't subscribe because the MA is not for me. During my 2wk trail i didn't get a chance to play the historical scenarios so i don't know how they go, and im not willing to spend 30$ to find out. But if HTC makes a HA something like buzzbait described i would pay for that.
What does HTC think about this?

Offline Buzzbait

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What is needed to make a Historical Arena succeed
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2001, 07:12:00 PM »
S! DV

Maybe you better go back and re-read my initial post.  I quote myself:

"...here is my analysis of what is needed for a HA,"

Notice I said MY analysis.  Not yours, or Animal`s or Laz`s or anybody else`s.

The post was my point of view.  That`s all.  No where did I claim to be speaking for the community.

On the other hand, you seem to be reserving that perogative for yourself.

Anytime someone posts anything on these Bulletin boards which proposes any kind of change, or which is critical of the way the Sim is structured, you instantly stomp on them.  Your response comes down to the same thing everytime:

`The Sim is perfect`
`Nothing needs to be changed`
`Shutup and wait for what HTC comes up with next`

It seems you have appointed yourself final arbitor of what is acceptable for the community.

What do they say about people in glass houses  throwing stones?     ;)

As far as knowing this community:

I fly online or have flown online in EAW, WWII Fighters, Red Baron, Warbirds, AW, AH, CFS, FA etc.

All these communities are basically the same.  You have your dedicated `furballers`, your `historical buffs`, `bomber guys`, etc. etc.  
In fact a lot of the guys in one Sim are the same as in the next.  Online flyers are actually not that big of a community.

I have been around long enough that I can get a pretty good sense of the atmosphere online.

But that is not the point.  As I said above, I`m venturing my own opinion.  Not speaking for everyone.

Offline AKDejaVu

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What is needed to make a Historical Arena succeed
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2001, 07:57:00 PM »
Quote
All of us fly these Sims for fun.

If we are not having fun, we stop.

We are prepared to deal with some restrictions to that fun in the interests of historicity, but there is a limit.

The only time you take credit is when you are telling HTC (whom you refer to as "you") what to do to make the arena more apealing to "we".

That is speaking on behalf of "we".

You have an idea of what you feel the main arena should be.  You decided to tell HTC very specifically what they need to do to make you happy.  It has nothing to do with we.

AKDejaVu