Author Topic: AKWab et all:  (Read 176 times)

Offline J_A_B

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AKWab et all:
« on: August 19, 2002, 03:02:12 PM »
Sorry I took so long to respond in our duscussion in the "been said 1,000,000 times" thread, but I wanted to get some examples of the point I was trying to make.  

Again, my point is that as you increase the size of a player population, the number of major "hot spots" will NOT increase proportionally, resulting in the existing fights turning into netlag-inducing mass battles.    Although maintaining proper base density and base distance can help the problem, I feel that the 50-plane battles (and the associated lag and warps) are an inevitable result of placing 400+ players into one arena.  

I can't figure out how this attach feature works so I may have to reply to myself several times.

Offline J_A_B

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AKWab et all:
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2002, 03:02:59 PM »
Here's 250 online:

Offline J_A_B

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AKWab et all:
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2002, 03:03:45 PM »
375 players:

Offline J_A_B

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AKWab et all:
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2002, 03:04:42 PM »
475 players:

Offline Blindman

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AKWab et all:
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2002, 03:09:53 PM »
I think it is the lay of the land that dictates the ebb and
flow of battle, not the number of people on at any given time

AKpizza map has battles all over the place
Always cheat; always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.

Offline J_A_B

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AKWab et all:
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2002, 03:16:19 PM »
Ok, as shown on the pictures, the player sizes range from 180 players online to 475.    Despite the player population changing by a factor of more than 250%, the number of major "hot spots" ramains fairly constant--there's around 4 real large battles and a few small battles on the fringes.  The major effect of increasing player numbers is to make the biggest battles even more crowded.


You'll doubtlessly note that in every case, the players DO have the option to avoid those big battles.  However, most players apparently do not avoid them.   Problem is, the same players who fight in these big battles are the same ones who will have the most prohblems with lag and warps (note all the complaints about connections lately).  Simply asking them to spread out more obviously won't work; this is where arena design and population comes into play.  You need to have enough players online to allow for good gameplay, but not so many as to create those undesirable mass battles.

I was using a 150-player number before as an example.  I personally feel that anything from around 30 to around 200-250 is good, as long as the arena is properly designed for the expected number of players (no 256 x  256 terrains for 40 players, etc).  Once you start going over about 250 or so, you begin to get those massive netlag-inducing battles that cause too many problems.    Once the Internet can actually handle such battles, this discussion will be irrevelant.

J_A_B

Offline CptTrips

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AKWab et all:
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2002, 03:33:38 PM »
Quote
You'll doubtlessly note that in every case, the players DO have the option to avoid those big battles. However, most players apparently do not avoid them.


Which leads to suspect (in a 150 player limit arena) there will prolly end up 2 50-plane lag furballs and rest scattered around.  Can explain to me why that won't happen?

Even in your own example with 180 players, they still clumped up into 4 large hotspots.  Am I to believe the entire arenas behavior is suddenly going to drastically change just because you limit it to 150 players from 180?  If 180 players clump up into 4 hot spots, why am I to believe that 150 player won't just clump up into 3 hot spots?

Multiple arenas with population caps have some advantages.  However, I don't think they will, in and of themselves, help evenly distribute players within a given map. They also have disadvantages of  their own.  

If there are 3 150-player maps and 308 players on, 8 paying customers are going to get ghetto'd off to a 8 player map.  Paying customers aren't going to like that too much especially when all their other squadmates are over on the other map AND ITS FRICKEN SQUAD NITE! ;)

Regards,
Wab
Toxic, psychotic, self-aggrandizing drama queens simply aren't worth me spending my time on.

Offline J_A_B

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AKWab et all:
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2002, 04:01:08 PM »
"If there are 3 150-player maps and 308 players on, 8 paying customers are going to get ghetto'd off to a 8 player map. "

That's assumming that each arena will fill up completely before the next one starts to, which is not what happens in practice.  

Indeed, with 180 players online there are 4 large hotspots.  However, compare the number of players in those hotspots to the hotspots when there's 475 online.....when there's 180, the density of the big battles is far lower, meaning lag and warps won't be a problem.

With 150 online, there probably WILL be 3-4 big hot spots (as well as some fringe action which is aleways present).  This is why I say we're on the same page here.  The thing is, those 4 hot spots on a 150-player map won't have enough people crammed into a small area to create problems.  You might have 30 people fighting between two bases, but a fair number of those 30 will be taking off/RTBing and not "in the thick of it" meaning there won't be enough people actually fighting at any given time to create problems.  It's not about the number of fights at all; it's about the density of fights.

Besides, 150 is just a number; as I said before I think anything from around 30 to around 200-250 is fine.

Thanks for the discussion Wab, always nice to see something stay civil and not degenerate into name-calling :)  

J_A_B

Offline CptTrips

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AKWab et all:
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2002, 04:51:48 PM »
Quote
That's assumming that each arena will fill up completely before the next one starts to, which is not what happens in practice.


Will it not?  If I log on and the first arena is 80% full and the rest empty, why would I choose to be the first one to wander around alone in the other arena?  I suspect they will funtion more as overflow capacity.  The herd is going to try and go to the arena where everyone else is until they are blocked from doing so.  Only then will they move to the less populated map.  IMHO.

Quote
Indeed, with 180 players online there are 4 large hotspots. However, compare the number of players in those hotspots to the hotspots when there's 475 online.....when there's 180, the density of the big battles is far lower, meaning lag and warps won't be a problem.


Maybe, maybe not.  Its hard to tell from those small pictures but from the dar bar, if to look at the 2 biggest furballs in each example they look to have similar numbers.  

I almost tend to think that lag furballs have a natural size limit.  From my own experience you see a big fight and go there.  People continue to do that until the warp in that location becomes unplayable and then some of people start moving elsewhere.  I think there is a natural equilibrium that limits the size of a furball just on the edge of unplayability.  A furball that attains an initial critical mass will grow.  As it approaches that limit of playability, people "tend" to move elsewhere.   Assuming of course that the map is big enough that there is always someplace that is not approaching that unplaybility limit.  
The problem is that on some of the smaller maps, with some nights attendance, the arena can be so chocked that there is no field you can launch from (within reasonable distance from an attackable target) that is not at the edge of unplayablity.

On the other hand:

Having a set of maps can fill to accomodate a large number of players by distributing them across a number of arenas.  At the same time, at 3am CST the action can collapse down to a single small map so the euro boys don't have to wander around in a 90% empty map.

Also, having a set of 256x256 separate maps means they are easier to make and you can have more of them with more variety available any given night.  That might in fact help distribute the population as different people who like different maps gravitate toward their favorites.

Also, the current set of 256x256 sized maps need not be phased out.  We can just add new ones instead.

I'm not sure I completely buy the idea, but it is worth HTC thinking carefully about.  


Quote
Thanks for the discussion Wab, always nice to see something stay civil and not degenerate into name-calling  


Yes, it is pleasant to discuss something with someone without them thinking they need to demean you personally to argue against your idea.
There are certain individuals in our community who have based their WHOLE persona off that behavior.  Verbal zingers and derogatory catch phrases don’t really lend their argument additional weight.  I don’t understand why they think it does.  Yeah, sometimes I lose my cool and get caught up in that too, but at least I can still recognize the difference. ;)

Regards,
Wab
Toxic, psychotic, self-aggrandizing drama queens simply aren't worth me spending my time on.

Offline SKurj

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AKWab et all:
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2002, 05:07:09 PM »
I have heard that the dar bar ONLY represents 10 players of any side....  Even if thats incorrect I think it is not as "relative" as i thought and its based on a set player number = full bar

So 20 friends or 40 friends will still display the same dar bar


Think J_A_B is definitely on the mark myself +)



SKurj

Offline whgates3

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AKWab et all:
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2002, 08:54:46 PM »
concentration of firepower is they key to winning a battle...of course this is a concept from napoleanic type warfare, not sure if it applies to air combat

Offline Innominate

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AKWab et all:
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2002, 09:36:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by J_A_B

You'll doubtlessly note that in every case, the players DO have the option to avoid those big battles.  However, most players apparently do not avoid them.  


The only map that this is true on is AKdesert.  The small maps usually end up with a few hotspots which essentially cover the entire frontline.

Offline Turbot

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AKWab et all:
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2002, 02:29:28 PM »
We could benefit from at least 2 "normal" ( i.e. identical settings -not wierded out like CT ) arenas. When the gangbanging gets going in one (ex. last weekends obscene numbers) there is a viable play option for those not in the mood to play whipping boy other than logging off.

Perhaps no reason to get all complicated, strnage, or super sophisticated - just 2 plain ol' normal arenas.  This WAS a good feature of Air Warrior from just a *player* standpoint - I had never even heard there was a techinical reason for it.

It's simple, it's easy, has already been tried, and it works.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2002, 02:32:23 PM by Turbot »