Author Topic: Some Interesting info on our Ta152  (Read 339 times)

Offline Viper17

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 711
Some Interesting info on our Ta152
« on: September 07, 2002, 03:06:28 PM »
http://hem.passagen.se/galland/Reschke.html

On April 14, 1945, two Hawker Tempests of 486 (New Zealand) Squadron took off from the Volkel airfield in Holland in order to attack the railway yards at Ludwigslust. As they initiated their low-level attack, three Ta 152s of Stab/JG 301 were scrambled against them from Neustadt-Glewe, five miles away. Within minutes, the German aircraft hurriedly fell upon the New Zealanders. Oberfeldwebel Sattler, flying in No. 3 position in the German formation, lost control over his new plane and crashed vertically into the ground. In the following dogfight at almost tree-top level, Sattler's comrade Oberfeldwebel Willi Reschke displayed the superior maneuverability of the Ta 152 by out-turning and shooting down the Tempest flown by Warrant Officer Mitchell, who had no chance to survive.

Reschke was an excellent pilot at the controls of the Ta 152. Ten days later he flew "Green 9", shown here, and destroyed two Yak-9s in the air over Berlin. Reschke had flown in JG 300, I./JG 302. and III./JG 301 before he was transferred to Stab/JG 301. He survived the war with a total score of 26 victories, eighteen of them 4-engine bombers.

His "Grün 9" was captured by the British at the Leck base at the end of the war. It was, together with other German aircraft, "exported" to England for public display at Farnborough.

Comments: The all RLM 83 green engine cowling of this aircraft denotes a engine change during its operational career. Many operational Ta 152s had problems with engine fires and changes were common.

Our Ta need a slightly greener nose spinner.

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
Some Interesting info on our Ta152
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2002, 06:48:25 PM »
I've heard this story quite many times, but everytime, I never could understand what they are referring to when they say "superior maneuverability of the Ta 152 by out-turning and shooting down the Tempest".

 No Ta152 in AH will out turn a Tempest. Heck, a Typhoon out turns a Bf109G-2, and the Tempest out turns a La-7 in AH. I've tried this myself.

 ...

Offline Hristo

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1150
Some Interesting info on our Ta152
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2002, 07:47:15 PM »
You should know better - anecdotal evidence ;)

Seriously though, Dora is much better choice than Ta 152 as it is now.

Offline Nefarious

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15858
Some Interesting info on our Ta152
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2002, 11:57:47 PM »
In 2004 the new branch of the Air and Space Museum will open at Dulles or Ronald Reagan (I forget) Airport in DC.

Currently the Air and Space holds 1/8th of the entire Smithsonian collection of aircraft This will house the remaining aircraft!!.

The Hangar at the airport will have a SR71, A space shuttle and a B29.

It will also have Walter Loos's  (38 Victories in 66 sorties with 22 heavies) Ta152.


I can not wait for this to Open!!!!!
There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!

Offline Glasses

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1811
Some Interesting info on our Ta152
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2002, 12:20:17 AM »
There were several Ta152 Experten and I think those I'm about to  mention Survived the war: Wilhelm Reshcke, Walter Loos, Josef Keil(achieved 5 victories while in Ta152).(Plus a fellow with the surname Aufhammer)


If and when the Ta is fixed in AH I think it'll be worthy of the perked label as of right now being neutered in many aspects mentioned  like Hristo has said the Dora is much better at the ussual altitudes in AH leaving a "super plane" like the 152 an easy target.

Offline Wilbus

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4472
Some Interesting info on our Ta152
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2002, 02:32:31 PM »
Oh my God OH NO what a big major misstake! Didn't notice it untill now when you mentioned it. Wille Reshcke did not fly the AH Ta152. The AH Ta152 is, as everybody knows, a TA152 H-1 (wing tanks added, givving it a very good range, GM1 and MW50 added, different engine with supercharger and more HP aswell as more reliable).

The one Willi Reschke flew was a Ta152 H-0.

Why on earth is an H-1 painted like the Grün 9 when the Grün 9 was an H-0?
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline Viper17

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 711
Some Interesting info on our Ta152
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2002, 03:00:16 PM »
Huh I never noted that before. Maby a H-0 with Grun 9's scheme is in order. And Maby a H-1 with this scheme. Here is a Story on the Super Doras evolution.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Focke-Wulf Ta 152
Kurt Tank's finest
As promised, here is the follow-on to the Fw 190D story --- Kurt Tank's own Ta 152.
Before the end of 1940, the Focke-Wulf design bureau headed by Dipl.-Ing. Kurt Tank had initiated work on variants of the Fw 190 intended to improve its high-altitude performance. Three alternative proposals were considered, designated Fw 190B, C, and D. The Fw 190B was basically similar to the Fw 190A, but was to be powered by a BMW 801 radial boosted by nitrous-oxide (GM 1) injection pending the availability of an exhaust-driven turbosupercharger. A pressure cabin was to be fitted, and the wing area was to be increased. The Fw 190C was basically similar to the B but was to be powered by the Daimler Benz DB 603 liquid-cooled engine using either a mechanically-driven supercharger operating in conjunction with nitrous oxide injection or a turbosupercharger. The Fw 190D was powered by the Jumo 213. The Fw 190B and C both ran into an extensive series of teething problems, and, in the event, never entered production. Priority was therefore given to the Fw 190D even though Tank felt that that the DB 603 was a better high-altitude engine than the Jumo 213 and had greater development potential. The result was the superb "Dora" version of the Fw 190, which was described in a previous post.

When Germany declared war on the USA, the Luftwaffe had initially assumed that the Americans would give the war in the Pacific their first priority, and had not worried too much about high-altitude bombing raids from B-17 bombers. However, by the autumn of 1942, it became readily apparent that the USAAF was planning a full-scale massive bombing campaign against Germany from its bases in the UK, and that the Luftwaffe would soon require fighters with better high-altitude performances to face the threat from American bombers. By that time, the Luftwaffe was also aware of the existence of the B-29, and they were also aware that the existing Fw 190 would be incapable of effectively intercepting this American bomber at the altitudes at which it was supposedly capable of operating. Consequently, Dipl.-Ing Kurt Tank undertook the development of of a Hochleistungsjäger, or High-performance Fighter, offering a much improved combat ceiling.

The Luftwaffe envisaged a two-phase program for the production of its new high-altitude fighter. The first phase would produce an aircraft based to the extent possible on an existing production airframe. The second phase would design a fighter from the ground up specifically for the high-altitude role.

To meet the requirements of the first phase, Focke-Wulf proposed the Fw 190 Ra-2 and Ra-3 designs, both based on the Fw 190D. These two proposals were basically similar, differing from each other principally in wing span and armament, the Ra-2 having a standard Fw 190D wing and the Ra-3 having extended wing outer panels giving a wing with a rather high aspect ratio. The engine was to be a Jumo 213E with a a three-speed two-stage supercharger and induction cooler which offered superior high-altitude performance over the Jumo 213A. Both designs had a pressure cabin and provision for both nitrous oxide (GM 1) and methanol-water (MW50) injection. The fuselage was common to both models, and was lengthened to provide increased internal capacity. The cockpit was moved sixteen inches further aft in relation to the wing attachment points in order to balance the center of gravity. Vertical tail surfaces were enlarged, and both aircraft had a 30-mm engine-mounted cannon and a pair of 20-mm MG 151 cannon in the wing roots, however the Ra-2 was to have an additional pair of MG 151s in the upper deck of the forward fuselage.

The requirements of the second phase were to be met by the Fw 190 Ra-4D. Although it was based broadly on the Fw 190, the Ra-4D embodied a complete structural redesign and numerous aerodynamic refinements. It was from the start to use a turbosupercharged Daimler-Benz DB 603 engine, the engine which Kurt Tank had preferred all along.

Dipl.-Ing Kurt Tank had by this time obtained almost legendary status as a result of his successful aircraft designs, and the RLM decided to honor him by using the prefix "Ta" instead of "Fw" for aircraft coming out of his design bureau. Since the Ra-2 and Ra-3 were considered sufficiently different from their predecessors to deserve a new designation, they were the first to receive the new "Ta" prefix. They were both redesignated Ta 152 by the end of 1942. Logic would seem to dictate that the Ra-2 and Ra-3 be designated Ta 152H and K, since they followed on directly from the Fw 190F and G (I and J were not used as suffixes). However, Tank had a different idea. He proposed that the short-span Ra-2 be designated Ta 152B, where the B stood for Begeleitjäger or Escort Fighter, and the long-span Ra-3 be designated Ta 152H, where the H stood for Hohenjäger or High-Altitude Fighter. Such was the prestige of Kurt Tank that he immediately got his way. The Ra-4D was assigned the designation Ta 153.

Although Tank was pressing the Luftwaffe to allocate production priority to the Ta 152, the authorities were reluctant to disrupt existing assembly lines for the introduction of a new type. Consequently, the work on the Ta 152 proceeded only very slowly, and it was not until the spring of 1944 that serious preparations for production were begun. By that time, the USAAF bomber offensive was in full gear, and the Luftwaffe was in dire straits. The Luftwaffe desperately needed a counter to the P-51 Mustang which was cutting German fighters to pieces.

The wing of the proposed Ra-4D/Ta 153 had a slightly greater span and area than that of the Fw 190D. This wing was seen to have certain advantages over the wing originally envisaged for the Ta 152. In addition to having better aerodynamic characteristics, the Ta 153 wing was deemed easier to manufacture and was capable of carrying more fuel. The Luftwaffe consequently proposed that that the new wing be adopted for the Ta 152B, with the outboard panels and flaps being extended for the long-span Ta 152H.

Kurt Tank was still pressing for permission to use the DB 603 engine in the Ta 152, owing to its superiority over the Jumo 213E at high altitudes. Although the Luftwaffe still insisted that the Jumo 213E remain the primary Ta 152 powerplant, it permitted Tank to begin work on a DB 603-powered version under the designation Ta 152C. There was no designation conflict with the Fw 190C, since all work on that version had been abandoned by this time owing to chronic turbosupercharger problems.

The first Ta 152H prototypes were completed in the summer of 1944.

Several Fw 190C airframes were used in the project. The first Ta 152H-0 service test aircraft rolled off the assembly lines in October-November 1944. The Ta 152H-0s had no fuel tanks in their wings. They were joined a month later by the first production Ta 152H-1 aircraft, which had fuel tanks in the wings. The Ta 152H-1 was armed with one engine-mounted 30-mm MK 108 cannon with 90 rounds and two 20-mm MG 151 cannon in the wings with 175 rpg. 330 pounds of armor were carried for the protection of the engine and the pilot. Most production machines were delivered to Ta 152H-1/R11 bad-weather fighter standards. A MW 50 boost tank was fitted in the inboard port wing tank for use in enhancing low-altitude performance, with the GM 1 high-altitude boost tank aft of the cockpit being standard.

Offline Hristo

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1150
Some Interesting info on our Ta152
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2002, 01:07:40 AM »
Some facts about Ta 152 in AH:

It has decent speed but is not the fastest. Unperked speed demons will catch it. It seems to lack even powerloading of other 190s, especially the Dora.

However, it excels in E retention. It reminds me much of the P51 in that regard - slightly underpowered, but with excellent dive and zoom abilities. In turns it will take a while until it bleeds off the speed. It is a heavy plane with low drag - even its wings are lowed drag due to aspect ration (so I have heard).

So, you should fly it like a P-51. Even your internal fuel lasts long, even longer than of P-51. Use E tactics and verticals. Rely on your accumulated energy, do not expect your engine to build up your E state as fast as in other LW rides. More likely a sailplane ;).

It is a great and fun plane. But it is not 190 anymore. In typical AH matchups, D-9 will do better. But if you fly 152 right, you will learn to like it.

Its weaknesses are its perk icon and low gunsight. Sometimes you will feel frustrated seeing every La-7 breaking off furballs just to chase you - this definitely has no explanation in 152 advantages over Lame-7, more likely he wants to piss you off by robbing you of perkies.

Low gunsight line will frustrate you too. Generally, your attacks should come from dives, but gun runs should be from below.

Offline Wilbus

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4472
Some Interesting info on our Ta152
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2002, 04:02:05 AM »
Right Hristo, still undermodelled though, and still my favorite plane which is why I fly it. Not asking for it's deck speed to get better, just high alt speed, climb rate. It's a lovely plane but with the low alt speed it has it's not worth perking, there wouldn't be much more people flying it if it was unperked. Not what the thread is about though ;)

Our Ta152 has got the wrong paint sheme :)
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline moot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16333
      • http://www.dasmuppets.com
Some Interesting info on our Ta152
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2002, 10:50:30 PM »
so

152H-1 had GM1+MW50, wing tanks.
152H-0 had both GM1 and MW50 but less engine output, no wing tanks, the paint scheme on the picture above.

The Ta152 in AH has the 152H-0 pain scheme, but wing tanks as the H-1 did, but either has both boost systems and lower engine output like the H-0 or the H-1 engine and less than both boost systems?
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you

Offline Wilbus

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4472
Some Interesting info on our Ta152
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2002, 04:17:30 AM »
The H-0, atleast the earliest ones, didn't have MW50 or GM1, the engine couldn't handle being used in the highest gear (3:d), the transmission failed. Not untill the Jumo 213 E-1 (the one in the H-1) came could they use MW50 and GM1 good in the Ta152. That engine also added a couple of hundred horse powers extra even without the use of the boost systems.

Even at its maximum boost altitude of 10 700 meters (about 35 000 feet) it still put out 1,260 hp, for take off it put out 1,730 hp (all this without any boost systems).

And yes, the paint sheme is that of an H-0.
The weight and the wing tanks are that of the H-1 while the speed is some kind of hybrid, and the climb rate is far worse then any of the two.
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.