A/C Improvement Suggestions

[JG109]

Basic Problems: In Game all a/c prop engines turn in the same direction which affects turns: German / Russian a/c engines turn in the OPPOSITE direction than US / British / Japanese planes. This greatly affects turns to the left / right. Thus these a/c can turn to the right easier than most allied a/c can. Engine turning directions for the appropriate a/c should be switched along with the use of LEFT rudder to compensate for P-Factor and Torque on takeoff and thus turns which greatly will change a/c flying and fighting capability.

ME-109s and ME-262s had leading edge slats that auto-deployed when speeds got too slow (around 150 mph for the 109), the 109 also had auto-deploying flaps separate from the pilot controlled flaps). This is why General Chuck Yeager has always stated that if a P-51 got into a slow turning fight with a 109 it would always lose -- the 51 would stall out and / or be out turned by a 109 due to the extra wing area that comes into play (32 feet by .4 feet, around 1920 square inches on an 109 and close to 3000 on a 262 plus the extra slat effect, approximately 15% more lift than before deployment).

Spitfire Mk I, II, V and Mk XII could not carry belly tanks. The Spit IX was the first model Spitfire that could. The most time that one of these non tank equiped Spitfires could stay in the air was 2 1/2 hours on internal fuel from engine on till out of fuel (V, XII) but only with aggressive leaning and no high power engine time other than takeoff. The best documented case to confirm this is the 16 a/c of RAF 71 Eagle squadron who all ran out of fuel over Brittany while waiting for a friendly a/c to show up. Source: Pete Hardiman who flew in 121 Eagle squadron (local friend of mine) from 1942 and then was in the 4th FG till the end of the war.


http://www.abbevilleboys.com

[popeye]

AH props turn the appropriate direction for each aircraft.

[Wotan]

and the leading edge flaps are modelled in the fm its just not visually modelled and 109 whoop 51s easily enough in ah.

like popeye said props turn in the correct direction for all planes in ah.

only the spit 9  and spit 14 in ah are the only spits that  carry drop tanks.

You dont very much about ah.

So basically your thread is untrue and you can verify  everything we said by looking for yourself.

It makes me wonder if you have even tried ah.......

[whgates3]

The Spit Vcs flown off carriers to Malta carried belly tanks, and some North African Spits had those ugly slipper tanks.

[JG109]

Originally posted by Wotan
and the leading edge flaps are modelled in the fm its just not visually modelled and 109 whoop 51s easily enough in ah.

-- then it is modeled wrong since you have to MANUALLY drop flaps in the 109 at all times and there is NO noticable performance gain as you drop down in speed in the 109  to the speed at which the slats would kick in. Take up a G10 and have a 51 and you both going 150 mph and tell me how you fare. Also  do all your turns to the right and see if the 51 cannot keep up with you n the turn --

like popeye said props turn in the correct direction for all planes in ah.

-- Then why do I still need to use RIGHT rudder on take off when I should be using LEFT rudder? The props on MY screen ALL turn to the right in all a/c I have flown when I look out the cockpit. Then they model the torque internally but the visual is wrong --

only the spit 9  and spit 14 in ah are the only spits that  carry drop tanks.

-- I seldom fly a Spitfire. That was an oversight on my part but at least now I know that now. --

You dont very much about ah.

-- I don't live in AH but I have flown since v0.46. --

So basically your thread is untrue and you can verify  everything we said by looking for yourself.

It makes me wonder if you have even tried ah.......

[SKurj]

try a typh

prop turns the other way


SKurj

[Kweassa]

"ME-109s and ME-262s had leading edge slats that auto-deployed when speeds got too slow (around 150 mph for the 109), the 109 also had auto-deploying flaps separate from the pilot controlled flaps)."

"... then it is modeled wrong since you have to MANUALLY drop flaps in the 109 at all times and there is NO noticable performance gain as you drop down in speed in the 109 to the speed at which the slats would kick in."

 
 What in the world are you talking about?

 The 109s had two flaps and one slat. The slats which deployed automatically were placed in the leading edge, the normal flaps were pilot controlled and placed in the middle part of the wing at the trailing edge.

 The "automatically deploying flaps" you are talking about is the radiator flaps, which is in fact, not a flap but a open/close radiator mechanism which controlled the efficiency of the cooling system. They reacted automatically to the throttle settings - when throttle was high, they shut off, when throttle was low, they popped open.  These were placed at the root of the wings, trailing edge side. These radiator flaps might have had some influence in flight, but it is a cooling mechanism, not a flight control.

 Also, neither the leading edge slats nor the radiator flaps would give a 109 a "performance gain". Radiator flaps, of course, have nothing to do with controlling the flight, and the leading-edge slats were stabilizing mechanism, not enhancement mechanisms. They stabilize the plane in near-stall conditions. They weren't "butterfly flaps".

 I have flown the Bf109G-10 since the beginning of my AH experience(ver1.5) and I regularly fight against  even Spitfires in a low-speed situation. The leading-edge slats are not visually represented, but I do feel their presence.

 The Aces High G-10, when compared to planes of simular strengths(Spit14, P-51D, Temp5, La-7, Yak-9U), is the MOST STABLE plane of them all at extreme low-speed fights. I can handily shoot down average La-7 pilots by luring them into a low-alt low-speed maneuvering contest. Against average Yak-9Us I have won quite some fights by simply turning extremely tight at low speeds. The Yak-9U and La-7 destabilize very quick and they stall out. The P-51D is out-turned by the G-10, Tempests are all mushy when slow, and Spit14s suck at low speeds due to massive torque. The Bf109G-10 may not have an advantageous turning radius or roll rate, but it responds to the pilots controls very clearly even at low-speeds with minimum danger of stall - of all the planes in AH, only the "turn and burn" planes and the 109s are like that. No plane which is as fast as the G-10 can do that.

 This, undoubtably is the work of the positive stabilizing effect the leading-edge slats give. I notice that.

 ..........

Take up a G10 and have a 51 and you both going 150 mph and tell me how you fare. Also do all your turns to the right and see if the 51 cannot keep up with you n the turn

 I am willing to bet the "109" General Yeager was talking about was the Bf109G-6, not the G-10. Basically the typical "109" a USAAF pilot will refer to is a G-6 or an early G-14, in the sense they were the most common planes fighter pilots met during 1943~1945. All the "109s" in references, war-time stories, memoirs, anecdotes from the USAAF pilots are basically the G-6.

 Try a turn fight with a P-51D in a Bf109G-6 at low speeds. The G-6, as Yeager describes in the account you posted, handily out-turns the P-51D at low speeds. Besides, left and right does not matter. The P-51D and the Bf109G-6 both had props which rotated clockwise.

 ..........

Then why do I still need to use RIGHT rudder on take off when I should be using LEFT rudder?"

 Isn't it obvious?

 Planes with props rotating "right"(clockwise) veer to the LEFT at take off, not right. To counter a plane veering left, you use the right rudder. What's so wrong about that?

 Try flying the Spit14 or Yak-9U, the prop rotates to the "left"(counter-clockwise) on those planes. The plane veers to the right. You use left rudder there.

 .....

 One last thing.

"German / Russian a/c engines turn in the OPPOSITE direction than US / British / Japanese planes"

"The props on MY screen ALL turn to the right in all a/c I have flown when I look out the cockpit. Then they model the torque internally but the visual is wrong ...

 Why do they all turn right? Because, they all turned right in real-life. The visual direction is not wrong. You are wrong.

 German plane props rotate clockwise(right) - just the same as US planes.

[NOD2000]

yah i have to agree many pilots that i have wrote to said that they would get away from "jap" pilots by going into a hard dive and pulling out right because they japanise planes couldn't turn right as easily as they could left........

and with the flaps on the g-10 lol well best plane to handle that is the Hurr I and Spit I cuz when the 109 pilot starts doing S turns to slow him down enough where u have to pass him up just nose down a little if u are skilled enough u cna recover the hurr I/Spit I about 2in off the ground which counteracts any stall move the luft boys try and pull..........

[Wotan]

kweassa this tells the truth . I has typed a long reply but didnt post it.

Automatic flaps lol

All ah props turn the correct way. AH models the effect of leading edge slts they just arent modelled visually. There are no auto flaps on 109s. The radaitor flaps are well modelled in il2. Theres a demo avail able if you need to see them.

Just fer toejames and giggles I checked wbs il2 and wwiiol guess which way the 109 props turn. Which way did they turn in AW?

I amn sorry bud but your information is all incorrect. Nod you let him borrow your books?

[JG109]

Originally posted by Wotan
kweassa this tells the truth . I has typed a long reply but didnt post it.

Automatic flaps lol

== Per Discussion of the 109 technical aspects by people who rebuilt Black-6 (a 109 G-2) in the UK:

"Oil flaps can be independalty closed [by turning off the automatic system] and the decrease [in] drag gain a few knots in the twin system. Can also isolate each [oil cooler] in case of damage to slow oil leaks. [by pulling levers in the cockpit to stop oil flowing to the one in question.]

This divided flap system actually operates as a landing flap together with the main landing system through a clever linkage that the Germans designed."

All ah props turn the correct way. AH models the effect of leading edge slts they just arent modelled visually. There are no auto flaps on 109s. The radaitor flaps are well modelled in il2. Theres a demo avail able if you need to see them.

-- I had put into my mind that the DB600 series turned opposite of most allied planes. BIG mistake on my part posting that. No idea where I came to that conslusion. I am certainly wrong on that. But YOU are wrong on the flaps. The oil cooler do actually operate like that and since they are linked to the outboard flaps end up automatically deploying when they go down and as the oil temp goes up and down they (and they have the strength to do so) operate like flaps when they are down to increase oil cooling.

As to stating that leading edge slats do NOT increase performance -- lowering stall speed by airflow and delaying the onset of turbulance AND an increase in wing area when the slats jump forward DOES by definition increase lift performance. I watched Black 6 perform at Duxford in 1997 and it was doing slow rolls, loops and turns at around 150 mph (at top of loop and at end of turns) and had lots of performance left. Pick up a videotape of it and watch it fly.

The 109 had NO internal adjustment of trim for the rudder. It was fixed. Manually set (bent) just like on Cessna 152s by ground crew. Only elevator trim. That is modeled wrong in AH.

Just fer toejames and giggles I checked wbs il2 and wwiiol guess which way the 109 props turn. Which way did they turn in AW?

As stated I was wrong on that and no idea how I put into my mind that they turned counter-clockwise (as viewed from the cockpit).

[Wotan]

heres your original point.

(around 150 mph for the 109), the 109 also had auto-deploying flaps separate from the pilot controlled flaps).

This not true and even in your last reply nothing you just posted says anything about auto flaps.

kweassa reply to you

The "automatically deploying flaps" you are talking about is the radiator flaps, which is in fact, not a flap but a open/close radiator mechanism which controlled the efficiency of the cooling system. They reacted automatically to the throttle settings - when throttle was high, they shut off, when throttle was low, they popped open. These were placed at the root of the wings, trailing edge side. These radiator flaps might have had some influence in flight, but it is a cooling mechanism, not a flight control.

Also, neither the leading edge slats nor the radiator flaps would give a 109 a "performance gain". Radiator flaps, of course, have nothing to do with controlling the flight, and the leading-edge slats were stabilizing mechanism, not enhancement mechanisms. They stabilize the plane in near-stall conditions. They weren't "butterfly flaps".

No one said leading edgs slats improved out right performance but lowered the stall speed. In a low speed knife fight the 109 handles as one would expect given real life data.

As to trim (at this point given every other point brought up has beeen debunked) do a search on trim and  in particular the way toad explains it.

Ofcourse the 109 didnt not have rudder trim from cockpit but the only online game that models it this way in il2. Wbs has rudder trim for 109s.

The reason I suggest you do a search on trim and in particular toads post is because we have a thing called combat trim in ah. To understand what combat trim tries to address its necessary you understand how trim really works.

Seeing how you are so blatantly wrong in everything you have posted here before you or I get into trim please read the threads I mentioned so we dont rehash the same points.

Go back and read what you posted and when you get to the end of the thread list the things that you know no are blatantly wrong from your original post.

I will save you some time, everything.

[McAnne]

Actualy the 109s "slats" deployed whenever the airflow over the leading edge of the wing was not suffeciant enough to keep the wing in the air.  This was around 150 in level flight, but in some menuevers the wings would deploy at high speeds do to sudden loss of lift, or snap rolls as the are often called.  The 109 was a difficult plane to snap roll due to this part many German pilots sufferd to this problem during the war more so where the 190 pilots who changed units and were asigned 109s.  The slats also came out at different times, they were not connected they were 2 T-Totaly parts and computer technology was at best the size of a C47 so they didnt have them on 109s.  This could also poss a problem for 109s becuase if damage happened to 1 slat and not the other the plane could wildly vear out of control and spin to its death.   It was also another reason why many 109s didnt slow down to hit bomber formations because those 50s could get lucky and hit the leading edge wingtip and well there goes your slat..... god help you when you try to land.

[Puke]

That 109 is blocking the view of that beautiful F4U-1.

[Kweassa]

IIRC, assymetrical deployment of leading edge slats were changed with the later versions of 109s so they popped out at the same time. I remember it to be from G model onwards, but I'm not sure. One thing for certain, the all-so-famous statements of "assymetrical deployment".. "ruining aim".. "having to wire it shut for test purposes".. applied to Bf109Es tested in Great Britain, not for all 109s.

 ....

 As for the radiator flaps

"Oil flaps can be independalty closed by turning off the automatic system and the decrease in drag gain a few knots in the twin system. Can also isolate each oil cooler in case of damage to slow oil leaks. by pulling levers in the cockpit to stop oil flowing to the one in question.

 This divided flap system actually operates as a landing flap together with the main landing system through a clever linkage that the Germans designed."

 This reflects a somewhat glimmer of truth, as I did not deny they influenced flight.

 As Wotan has brought up 1c:Maddox Games' "IL-2:Sturmovik", this aspect is portrayed there. In "IL-2", Radiator flaps can be set to two positions, one is 'closed/auto', the other is 'open' position. When set to 'closed/auto' the flaps correspond to the throttle as I have stated before, but when set to 'open', they will remain opened as long as you change the settings. They add drag, slow your plane down, and sometimes can be used to increase the "air brake effect" when deployed with full flaps open.

 However, no matter how you look at it, its role as a flight control system is secondary and supplementary at best. It is no where near a "automatically governed flight control" one would expect to help increase the performance of a plane during combat. The system you would picture with that function would be the "butterfly flaps" installed on the planes such as N1K2-J, which is in this case, a true flap system which controlled the efficiency of the plane's flight control.