Author Topic: A perfect example of what an RPS becomes  (Read 584 times)

Offline ramzey

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A perfect example of what an RPS becomes
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2002, 08:46:49 PM »
mby im miss smth, did HTC not annouce new mission arena with rps on 1.11? :confused: :D :D :D

ramzey

Offline Griego

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A perfect example of what an RPS becomes
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2002, 10:44:14 PM »
The reason i left Warbirds is not the RPS. It was the fact that it is not a complete game as Ace's High yet. When i first got here to Ace's High on my two weeks trial offer. I saw squads of bombers and escorts. attacking a base. which is what was missing in WBIII. In WB 2.xx that would happen alot. I really like to see lots of bombers with escorts.  funny thing though I haven't seen that alot lately.


I like the RPS and in fact I like the Axis vs Allied setup. It gives you a more immersive game.  It actually feels like your at war. WarbirdIII when I left was not a Axis vs Allied game not in MA anyways and most of the players were in MA. Now it seems they [the players] have moved to the War Arena which is a Axis vs Allied arena.


 They've added some really cool graphics of small explosions on planes as they're hit by bullets. It actually looks like some gun cam flims of WWII. Except it's in color.

 Ace's High has things going for it also. High numbers,lower cost to play and a more complete strategic element.


 As far as RPS in Ace's High not a good thing unless it was Axis vs Allied.  

 I heard that 1.11 was going to be more mission oriented. Maybe Axis vs Allied? If it is it's more to my liking. I hope HTC implements the RPS then.

 People whining about RPS or Perks is just human nature. If we don't whining about something we'll just explode.

Offline SKurj

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A perfect example of what an RPS becomes
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2002, 11:00:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Revvin


And a spit fighting a spit or a 109 fighting a 109 or a SpitMk1 fighting a 109G10 or SpitMkXIV fighting a 109-E is more realistic :rolleyes: There have been just as many moans about perk rides and the RPS there has pretty much stayed the same since it was introduced, it had a few tweaks but it's remained as it was for a very long time. That thread is just typical of --ik-- as other's have mentioned in that thread he's just rehashing all the old arguments he put forward over 2 years ago before he left.


spits did fight spits... at one point after ww2...


SKurj

please sir, can we have more selective realism
« Last Edit: September 05, 2002, 11:03:52 PM by SKurj »

Offline Puke

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A perfect example of what an RPS becomes
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2002, 11:38:10 PM »
Quote
A perfect example of what an RPS becomes
Also a stunning example of what a Axis Allied split becomes..
 


Poopster, I haven't read your link nor any of the messages in this thread, but I do want to point out that RPS does not mean the same thing as an Axis v Allies setup.  I'm personally against that, though would welcome an RPS where it isn't Axis v Allies.

Offline Samm

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« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2002, 12:26:00 AM »
Of course the mission theatre will be RPS. Scenarios and TODs are RPS and they seem to be popular . But replacing the MA with an RPS theater is plain stupid .

Offline wipass

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A perfect example of what an RPS becomes
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2002, 02:48:09 AM »
A rolling plane set and an allied versus axis main arena would be a huge improvement over the constant late war aircraft furball that we have now.

I appreciate that a small minority take up early war aircraft and do quite well in them too. However, some aircraft never see the light of day and to all intents and purposes you only need 10 aircraft in aces high to keep the overwhelming majority happy.

An RPS would enable further skills to develop and after a while probably be fun too. I understand though that a lot of "pilots" want a quake shoot em up and the fastest aircraft available with the biggest guns.

I haven't "flown" in a scenario in AH, when you run say a BOB event, do you use the historical aircraft or is it all 190D, P51 and Jets etc, I am guessing not.

wipass

Offline Hussein

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A perfect example of what an RPS becomes
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2002, 05:06:36 AM »
RPS is no different from the situation you have in MA.

There will always be pilots who prefer to fly axis / allied and when doing so, fly the most uber plane available.

So the basic setup is exactly the same like in MA today, all RPS does is to force you to get some flying time in early war planes, which otherwise will be left out of the MA completely.

If you look at the kill stats, only planes AH really needs in MA are n1k, 190d, p51D, spit ix, spitv and la7. Oh, and tiffies for bishorcs.

Rest of the planes - nobody would even notice if they got disabled on main.

Offline wulfie

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A perfect example of what an RPS becomes
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2002, 05:13:55 AM »
Wipass and others,

Alot of people are very like minded here - but some have the benefit of experience where others do not.

In it's very early stages, WB had a great community. It was pretty darn small...around 70-90 people at most but the same 70 to 90 were flying every night.

The MA was a cool place in general. Everyone 'knew' each other. It wasn't uncommon to be able to 'fly out to sea' away from an island if you wanted to separate someone for a good 1 on 1 fight - and this was in the MA.

There was no RPS. Strictly speaking, Allied aircraft held an advantage as there were some 1944 Allied aircraft modeled and the most advanced LW aircraft modeled was from 1942.

But no one really cared. WB had the best FM in the business, and many of those origional 70-90 hadn't flown online against other humans.

It was all about the fact that you were fighting against another person, usually flying an aircraft that you owned books about before you could read. It was great.

To cut to the chase - most of that crowd thought that having an 'Axis vs. Allies' 'rolling plane set' MA would be ideal. More 'real'. More 'like history'.

All I can say is most of them (i.e. those who were excited about an Axis vs. Allies, RPS MA, myself included) were wrong - for reasons too numerous and too complex (after all, we are talking about human to human interaction) to mention in this post.

Here's one small example - technology never advanced evenly during WW2. One side had an advantage. The other side caught up with a stopgap and/or leaped ahead with the next generation of equipment. AH is not populated in it's entirety (or even in it's majority, which is often a good thing as some people take things a little too seriously in historically based games/sims/etc.) by die hard WW2 aviation buffs who are likely to be of the opinion "I don't care if the Fw 190A outperforms my Spitfire V in almost every category - I fly Spitfires and every Fw 190A kill is that much sweeter". In short, you are likely to have massive odds imbalances that change from side to side with the introduction of each 'new' aircraft. That's one example of *many*.

The people who make up HTC have the benefit of experience. They saw it happen too.

In short - if you are all about historical matchups then you have to have those aircraft in realistic mission settings as well. Which is why the 'mission arena' is a good idea - Axis vs. Allies, RPS, mission based - all things wanted by the same crowd.

Also, don't fool yourselves. I loved the RPS MA when it came out. But I will tell you something - after a few months I really missed the 'anything goes' MA. Some weeks you are in the mood to see how well you can do that A6M2 vs. 'all comers'.

The MA, with perked aircraft and vehicles, and everything under the sun fighting everything under the sun is our own little A2A + A2G + G2G 'universe of war'. It doesn't have some cool things that total realism would give it. It also doesn't have alot of the restrictions.

AH has the player base to have both arenas I'll bet. It's always better to have more choices - providing the choices don't harm each other.

When people say that an Axis vs. Allies, RPS MA is a mistake they are basically 'you' 5 or more years ago - and they saw it all go sour. There's no agenda in their opinion...they have just experienced something that you hopefully won't have to experience.

Mike/wulfie
« Last Edit: September 06, 2002, 05:21:44 AM by wulfie »

Offline beet1e

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A perfect example of what an RPS becomes
« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2002, 05:28:46 AM »
I read that WB thread, but I don't see any arguments against an RPS in there. I did leave WB partly because of the sucking RPS, and because iEN would do nothing about it. It had been preceded by an interesting "Generations" concept, developed by a guy called sinbad, but this was tried for only one tour before it was shelved. :confused:

There are (and were) problems in WB, and I would identify these as the main issues with the WB RPS:
  • No point arguing about individual plane performance, as the flight model for all planes is porked.
  • Not all planes that existed in WW2 are modelled in WB, and for that reason a certain amount of fudging is required to create a balanced arena. And that's what triggers --ik--'s whines.
  • With a strictly Axis v. Allied RPS, Doofus-Dweebius will switch sides to fly whichever plane is the strongest, fastest, best armed etc.
Yes, there are problems. But that is not the fault of the RPS. It is caused by all the factors listed above.

But is the above scenario that much worse than what we have in AH, especially with the small, pocket sized maps? Last night I was flying a Bishop 190A5 at Gangbang Island in the centre of the map - the one with the three vehicle fields on it. There was a low hurricane, and I managed a pretty good B&Z attack to kill it. But that opened the gates of hell. Now everyone knew I was there, so in come the Doras and Thunderbolts - and a N1K and an LA7 - of course. :rolleyes: Well, it just wouldn't be Aces High without an LA7 now, would it? I managed to outmanoeuvre the LA7 and 190 (biggest threats) and established 3000 yards of separation - but it was no good. The LA7 is able to catch up to me - even after a hard e-bleeding turn. :confused: Given that it was a 5-1 fight, I had no alternative but to reverse and fight the LA7. Low in his 12, I pulled up for a HO and that was the end of him. Same thing for the N1K. Now one of the P47s was 400 yards behind me. I barrel rolled and caused him to overshoot, and might have been able to pull up and shoot him, but the 190D was still there and blew me away.

A fun fight, possibly. Realistic? Hardly. Historical? LOL! Do you really think that this game is made better by having enemy LA7s five minutes away at all times? Maybe to a furballer it is. But for anyone flying a jabo mission, or wishing to fly something other than the all singing all dancing LA7/N1K/Yak subset, it is not. When trying to get a goon in for capture, we constantly have to have a sacrificial lamb present to distract the inevitable LA7!

I can see why AH is the way it is. As far as I know, AH has always had a flat rate pricing plan. Initially it was $30/month, now it is down to $14.95. AH was in direct competition with WB, which had a $2/hour pricing plan, and that forced WB to adopt a flat rate pricing plan. That’s why they’re in so much trouble – they don’t have the money for R&D, so the players have to contribute.  What Hitech/HTC realised (correct me if I’m wrong) is that guys like –-ik—in that WB thread are actually a minority. Most people that enter the world of Flightsimdom want nothing more than to get in a plane, take off, and start shooting stuff by the time they reach 5K. For a flat rate pricing plan to work, the game must have MASS appeal. Thus, the plane set is designed for mass market appeal. Indeed, there are guys like Lazs who have said openly that the only stat that matters to them is the number of kills per unit of time. That’s it. Nothing more. No interest in the war. No interest in territory capture. No interest in the historical.  

The RPS does have its problems, but not having one and constantly having to avoid opportunist LA7s is not much better. The one thing that IS better is that I don’t have to fly early war crap, but can choose my own plane.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2002, 06:32:27 AM by beet1e »

Offline Hussein

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A perfect example of what an RPS becomes
« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2002, 05:43:27 AM »
I on the other hand often choose the hardest plane in the planeset to fly, just for the challenge.

I don't consider the early war birds crap by any means - they just require different tactics and skill to overcome the later war birds.

Often you come out the fight in flames, but when you do get your victory, it's sweeter than hell. I still remember my 6 kill streak in c202 against spitties and n1ks.

IMO if other players would also spend time with 'lesser' planes instead of being capture oriented 'must win.. land.. must win.. land' clone hordes, the MA would be far more interesting place to fly.

Unfortunately the arena is nothing but strat or wannabe Hartmanns who use every possible trick to make the game easyer for themselves in order to maximise their victories. Same mentality people are the ones who resort in 190 flip-flopping etc. warp inducing movements. Or running to ack the first chance they get.

That may be their idea of fun, but those people never will get my respect.

Offline Scot

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« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2002, 06:49:42 AM »
1). Amen, Wulfie.

2). I don't think Ik's passion for his favorite ride(s) should be minimized. The culture over on the WB's side has gone to whoever can make the most "noise" concerning RPS, AC FM, armament ...etc ( should call it Allied Birds as far as I'm concerned ).

3.) I think any attempt at an RPS needs to have a full contingent of the major aircraft of that era. I don't see that happening in the near future.



:D

Offline Ghosth

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« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2002, 10:09:58 AM »
I have a theory about how Dale & pyro actually work on things. They sit around, someone throws out an idea, then dale says "we tried that (rps) in Warbirds, they did nothing but whine about it".

IE Most features, etc they build they are trying to build as "whine proof" as possible.


If you spent 3 hours painting a most awesome picture, and 8 pf 10 people who saw it whined about they way the color's matched, would you paint again?

Its the same with HT, he spends hours & days & months codeing to build this super cool sim. And people whineing take all the fun out of it.

RPS = huge whinefest, = we won't ever see it here.

I'll even go so far as to say if people whined LESS, we'd get more planes, & more features FASTER!

Now there's a concept for ya!

:)

Ghosth

(Yes before you crank up the heat I've done it too)

Offline Revvin

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A perfect example of what an RPS becomes
« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2002, 10:18:49 AM »
Yes there were holes in the RPS it was'nt perfect and would'nt be in AH right now but I'd prefer that to what we have now with only a small part of the planeset we have actually been used to any extent I'd love to see a more diverse selection of planes in the arena's. It all boil's down to the 'gottawins' who whine because they think they're being hard done by in the RPS when in actual fact it evened itself out over the TOD. I tried the RPS in WB and I tried the WW2A and liked it spending the majority of it flying Allied but quite a few TOD's where I only flew Axis (I liked to fly the 190A-4, after leaving an RAF squad I felt like a new challenge) Neither side had it all their own way but some people just demand to have it their way all the time so the few 'gottawins' have to whine. The thread linked at the start of this thread is not an indication of how the RPS or Axis vs Allies won't work it's an indication of some people's selfish ego 'gottawin' attitude.

Quote
spits did fight spits... at one point after ww2...


And your point is? Oh sorry you don't have one? ok nevermind....

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2002, 10:24:48 AM »
wulfie... as someone who "debated" with you quite often during the axis vs allied RPS thing way back when... i can only say.   Your post is... uh... accurate and honest..   I don't expect the same from other RPS advocates for many years.   Some... maybe never.  People from limeyland and germany/netherlands/canada for example may never come clean.  

In an RPS the vast majority jumps on the "best plane" bandwagon and there is allways a "best plane".  
lazs

Offline gofaster

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« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2002, 10:48:08 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SKurj


spits did fight spits... at one point after ww2...


Israel vs Egypt as Israel sought to establish itself as a new nation.  Egypt got theirs from Britain, Israel got theirs wherever they could, including pulling'em out of junk yards and playgrounds.