Author Topic: KG2 and TOD  (Read 1104 times)

Offline Kronos

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KG2 and TOD
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2002, 02:45:59 PM »
Guys and Gals,

I think we are forgetting one thing here.  This is a game.  Some people just don't have as much time as others to put into it.   If KG2 couldn't attend frames 1 and 2 because of the BOB, then fine.  I understand it.  Not everyone has the time to put in BOTH a Saturday of 7 hours and a Sunday of another 2 for a LUXURY, in the same weekend.  

The CM's did give 2 weeks notice atleast of this event.  But still, how many people who attended the TOD's put in asmuch time as Esme and KG2 did into BOB?  (Aside from Wotan, Witch and AndyH, they're special :D )

I don't think it is very fair to penalize KG2 for frames 1/2.  They were trying in their own way to support AH, and that should be taken into consideration.  Yes, Esme and KG2 didn't monitor the TOD forum very much.  Ok, people make mistakes.

However, that being said, Frame 3 was a different matter.  But reading the rules of the TOD, if you are to punish KG2 for frame 3, you'd prolly have to punish half the squads in the TOD, including my squad, as we were 1 short of minimum numbers.

This is just my 2 cents, so take it with a grain of salt.  But please, remember that this is a game, and people do have lives outside of Aces High.

Let's be a little forgiving.

Kronos
« Last Edit: September 09, 2002, 02:51:51 PM by Kronos »

Offline jordi

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« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2002, 03:26:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kronos
The CM's did give 2 weeks notice atleast of this event.  But still, how many people who attended the TOD's put in asmuch time as Esme and KG2 did into BOB?  (Aside from Wotan, Witch and AndyH, they're special :D )



Well unless I was the TOD CO and I had to write the orders those 2 weeks of over lap - All one has to do is get thier orders and show up and fly ( In theory ).

I Flew a Friday TOD that finished past MIDNIGHT My time then showed up less than 12 hrs later to do my CM DUTY for BoB AND flew as a FL for the Axis and was online Sat for the frames for 6 + hours.

Having 24 hrs off between a Frame and the TOD would have been a luxery for me !

Just saying . . .

Jordi
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Offline Esme

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« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2002, 03:44:38 PM »
Nifty, injudicious, yes - because if we had had information on when the TOD was at the same time as we had the info on when BoB would be we could have made an informed decision as to what precisely we wanted to do; fly BoB, fly TOD, or fly both. As was, as I have said several times, we were under the impression that there would be no more TODs until after BoB was over.  Therefore, we commited to BoB,  those of us that could.

What I am objecting to is that we are being penalised for our inability to attend under the circumstances. One has to be realistic. Sure, only a minority were able to fly BoB - just as only a minority fly TODs.  Pardon my lack of understanding of the AH community that I rather expected it to be the same minority that would be interested in both. (shrugs).  

Lets put it another way - if the TOD were scheduled as and when it was but squads were NOT penalised for failing to show due to the unusual circumstances of BoB being on, I would be happy. Otherwise, to expect us to happily be sit and told off because we didnt want to commit to another 3 hours of AH on Sundays directly after 6 hours of AH the Saturdays before that we had committed to much further in advance is quite simply unreasonable.

As Kronos has said, this is a game. nevertheless, quite a few of us, especially the CMs, and others of us like unit CO's and folk who volunteer to help out in games with knowledge, organisation, training, etc to try to make them a success, put a lot of time and effort into trying to make things as fun and interesting as possible for as many as possible.  I was doing just that in BoB. So was my XO.  

If BoB hadn't been on, we'd have been doing our best to help the TOD be as good as it might be. I did in fact offer what advice I could to Kronos regarding Ju88 planning in the frame that he was CO in this TOD, despite being rather "burnt out" at the time. I ended up so burnt out I couldnt even face flying the last two frames of BoB, but I had at least done my bit helping with the planning, selection of KG FLs and what little advice and training we were able to give pilots prior to the frames.

I DID advise that KG2 would not be able to participate in this TOD due to the short notice with us being so heavily involved in BoB, as soon as I realised the situation.

Seems that wasn't enough.  Look what it's gotten me; accused of not reading the rules, scolded for not wanting to force myself to play in a TOD I had not expected to happen when it did,  wasnt up to flying in and certainly wasnt prepared for.  My unit has been accused of not having its act together. Aye, we're so untogether we've won awards. Check http://www.s3events.com  Check our numbers in that, and how we fared compared to other bomber units since our inception. It's doubtless because we're so untogether that Wotan asked for me to advise on bomber-related matters, etc. for BoB.

What do you want, blood?!?!

All I'm asking for, for heavens sake, is a little understanding of the situation that we were put in by the scheduling of the TOD. Maybe you dont feel it was inappropriate to time it just then; but if so, then you need to accept that it effectively barred some who had already committed to BoB from attending. Would you have had me break my commitment to BoB just because a TOD was suddenly scheduled for the same time?

Put it the other way around; if TOD had been known about well before BoB, and then two weeks beforehand BoB is announced, would you have wanted folk to abandon TOD just to fly in BoB? Of course not - you'd want them to honour their commitment. Which is what we did. At the time we signed up for BoB, we did NOT know when the next TOD would be. Therefore, I have to repeat that the timing of the TOD was unfortunate, and that to insist that we either fly it or be penalised UNDER THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES is grossly unfair.  The situation could have been avoided simply by delaying the TODs for a couple of weeks. Players could have been sounded out over the matter. (shrugs)

Yet again, anyone who feels that penalising KG2 under the circumstances is fair is probably not someone I want to fly with, for choice.

I'm sorry, but this situation is of the CM's creation, not mine or my units. Those responsible have,  I feel, behaved thoughtlessly, unrealistically and curmudgeonly over this matter. I and my unit can hold our heads high.  We will continue to support organised games of any sort, and to help promote the flying of bombers in a more historical manner to the best of our ability. Any unit taking part in TODs wanting advice or help with flight planning for bombers for a game please feel free to contact me, if you wish. I can't promise I'll be able to help, but I will if I can, and/or point you in the direction of other pilots that I think may be able to help with your query. This offer is NOT dependent on KG2's continued participation or otherwise in TOD's.

What is upsetting me the most about this is that I was just training up one of my officers to take over at the helm of the unit operationally, so that I can concentrate on the backroom stuff. I've had my share of leading planes in combat, and I like the planning side - he loves leading in combat, so the new arrangement suits us both. I'd hoped that our next TOD would be his first leading the unit into action. I hope to hell he's still given that chance by the CM's.

Esme

Offline Esme

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« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2002, 04:09:36 PM »
Jordi - we're a bomber unit, not a flipping fighter unit.  Yes, one CAN "just turn up and fly" with bombers, but we in KG2 enjoy flying in a planned and organised way - which is what the TOD's are supposed to be about, unless I'm greatly mistaken? As for orders - what if ones orders show little understanding of how to use buffs well - am I just supposed to be quiet and fly 'em anyway, or offer my CO the benefit of my experience and suggest a better way of doing things? I mean absolutely no disrespect to anyone on this, by the way - there's plenty that a good many people could teach me regarding the deployment of fighter units.  I just happen to be that rarer beasty, an experienced bomber pilot, so I don't expect most folks to know how to use 'em as well as they do fighters.

As for flying past midnight, y'might like to check the time that S3's were flown when I was in them.  flown. G'wan.... go look at their website. Now note that I live in the UK. Yes, I really DID get up in the middle of the night in order to fly from 1am to 4am on Monday mornings when I had to leave for work at 7am.

And for BoB I had to put many, many hours in creating usable reasonably clear outline maps, in the absence of Glars or Max Overlays maps, before I could even start the actual flight planning side of things, bearing in mind that I had to create information to be distributed to an unknown number of people, and it had to be as clear as I could make it (wasnt good enough, IMO, but time wasnt on my side).

Both the size of the task, the time constraints and the amount of effort required surprised me. BoB was practically a second, and unpaid, job for me. And given the insight it all gave me into the problems of setting up such a game, well - I've always appreciated the effort that CM's put in for us all, but now I do even more so. Tilt and banana had a heck of a lot on their plates, including me getting needlessly stroppy from stressing out, at one point, and they handled it magnificently.  ! More power to their elbows.

The contrast with the current situation is pretty startling. I've done everything I could to handle a nigh-on impossible situation as best I could, I've kept the CMs informed, I've helped a side-CO out (tried to help a second, but circumstances prevented, unfortunately), havent even lost my temper, and STILL my unit is getting penalised for a situation not of our making. I just don't understand it.

Esme

Quote
Originally posted by jordi


Well unless I was the TOD CO and I had to write the orders those 2 weeks of over lap - All one has to do is get thier orders and show up and fly ( In theory ).

I Flew a Friday TOD that finished past MIDNIGHT My time then showed up less than 12 hrs later to do my CM DUTY for BoB AND flew as a FL for the Axis and was online Sat for the frames for 6 + hours.

Having 24 hrs off between a Frame and the TOD would have been a luxery for me !

Just saying . . .

Jordi

Offline Squire

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« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2002, 04:21:21 PM »
Im simply speaking up as a fellow squad CO here. I would like to see some virtual handshakes on both sides here, and end this before it gets out of hand.

Maybe Esme made an error, well, I dont know if thats cause to eject them from the next TODs. They seem like a good bunch, committed to organised play in AH, they are also the only organised axis bomber unit that I know of.

As for the CMs, I understand the TOD rules are there for a reason, but enforcing them is still based on circumstance I would think?

Lets not have a big fight over one TOD. Forgive a little, both sides. To me this is already out of hand for what we are talking about in a online sim.

Not my business I guess, but there it is.

Regards.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2002, 04:29:12 PM by Squire »
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Offline sling322

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« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2002, 04:39:33 PM »
Esme-

You said yourself that you couldnt make frame 3 and you didnt know if any of your squaddies would make it.  In fact, in corresponding with me before, you stated that you werent sure if you could even field the minimum commitment of 4 pilots.  At this point, in an effort to help alleviate any pressure on your squad I told the COs to consider you inactive.  Why should they plan on having 4 KG2 pilots there when in actuality none of you were going to show up?

The TOD is all about balance.  There is a reason we have attendance rules in place.  The Admins and COs are given commitment numbers and then they split the squads up according to those numbers to ensure that the frames are as even as possible.  How fair is it to assign your squad to a side and then have a CO write up orders for you and then you not show up?  How does that affect the rest of the team that you were supposed to be on?  If one squad fails to show up it affects the rest of the side.

My decision to inactivate your squad was based on this.  Everybody agreed to the rules when they signed up.  I simply cannot allow any squad to break them no matter what the reason.  As Daddog has stated above, a number of squads have been deactivated from time to time at their request because they knew they would not be able to meet their commitments.  Those guys just grabbed guest slots with other active squads until such time that they were able to meet the guidelines that have been set out for the TOD.  As soon as we allow one squad to break the rules, then we may as well not have any rules in the first place.  

I think you are taking my actions out of context.  My intentions were never to punish you or your squad.  I was giving you a chance to get your guys together, make sure everybody is on the same page, and come back in a later TOD once you can meet the requirements.  I didnt kick anybody out.  You can still fly as guests with any active squad.  This was my way of making that suggestion to you.  When you feel that you can confidently field the minimum squad requirements for the TOD, let me know and we will activate KG2 immediately.  I do have to remind you though, that you may not always get your choice of rides.  Squads are expected to switch up and fly for both sides.  As far as the bomber preference, I am sure that can prolly be arranged, but you may have to fly Allied iron from time to time in order for the Admin guys to achieve the balance that they need for the event.

If you would like to discuss this further, I ask you to please take it to email mark.todd@charter.net

Offline Esme

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« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2002, 06:50:22 PM »
NB: I have edited this from my previous version because on reflection, and given how strongly I feel  about the issue of fairness in the situation, I do not think it will be best served taken privately at this juncture.

Sling, I've read the rules. I've understood them. I've followed them. I've explained the situation. I've apologised for our non-attendance due to a situation not of our causing. I and my unit have then been scolded, I've been told to read the rules, we've been told to "get our act together" etc. etc. and we've been told we're out of the next TOD due to a situation that wouldnt have arisen if we'd been given as much warning of that TOD as we had of BoB, despite the fact that there is NO reason to believe that we would not attend the next TOD as per the rules.  We didnt no-show in that last one on a whim; we no-showed due to insufficient warning of a TOD when we were already fully committed elsewhere.  

We all make mistakes, m'dear. Have KG2 erred in this matter? If so, how? We all make unfortunate decisions from time to time.  In this we had very little real choice. And sometimes situations arise that mean that rules cannot sensibly be adhered to. Sometimes the rules just don't cover it. I put it to you that irrespective of whether one feels that it was a good idea or not to run TOD when it was run that the TOD rules clearly don't sensibly address the situation that arose with KG2. Applying them so strictly under the circumstances is neither sensible nor just.  

OK, NOW I'm willing to go private on the matter. My email is nocturnal@clara.co.uk

Esme





« Last Edit: September 09, 2002, 07:47:29 PM by Esme »

Offline Gremlin

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KG2 and TOD
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2002, 07:11:56 PM »
Was that a big kiss I heard??

I hope so :D

Offline jordi

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« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2002, 08:07:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gremlin
Was that a big kiss I heard??

I hope so :D


Hope not a sloppy WET one ? !  :)

Jordi
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Offline Esme

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« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2002, 08:28:21 PM »
No, But I'm willing to go so far as a hug if I'm met halfway on this.

(Chuckle...) no serious snogging on a first date, y'know? ;-)

Esme

Oh aye; Sling, I said I didnt know if we could field enough due to the situation, etc. yada, yada. That situation doesn't hold for future TODs,  now does it? We have more pilots than we had when we started, and the more unreliable/less committed ones have left. Granted, due to our small size I cant absolutely guarantee we wont occasionally have the odd problem with numbers, but on avergae I am expecting us to be OK.  If I've misinterpreted your intent with the suspension, you've certainly misunderstood why we couldnt field sufficient pilots for the last TOD. Looking forward to getting this sorted out amicably.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2002, 08:40:31 PM by Esme »