Author Topic: Limiting the impact of suicide jabos  (Read 813 times)

Offline Tyro48

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Limiting the impact of suicide jabos
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2002, 05:37:10 AM »
I think Weaselsan is on the right track with the delay, if u crash within a certain time constraint your efforts are useless and so this also hold no regard for whether you after points or not, but it sticks it to the dweebs that crash getting the job done.

Offline Wotan

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Limiting the impact of suicide jabos
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2002, 05:46:57 AM »
well the problem with a score multiplier of some sort wont apply to guys who are suicidal. You see if they are killing themselves chances are they care nothing about scores. Score tweaks only work for guys who care about their score. I dont like damage delays, especially for bombers. They seem really weak to me and killing them after their bombs are dropped and before they get to target would be enough to send what we have for a bomber community over the edge. Imagine an hour and a half flight and you got your bombs off and here comes a 163 and kills you before they hit. Bombers would become useless.

Folks have the right to find fun any way then can in the main. Suicide runs dont really bother me. I find them hilarious at times.

However, I have read several threads over the past month or so by folks who voiced concern of such tactics. Make no mistake the biggest group the I have seen do this numerous times have been bish typh raids. Typhs dont compress that easy, and you see them holding their bombs till last second. Sometimes they drop late and their bombs dont even blow up. So it sure looks like thats what they were planning to do it when they got their. P38s and jugs maybe they compressed.

If folks wished to spend their time in ah doing, let umm. My only point was to discuss a way of limiting the overall impact on gameplay.

To me upping the hanger hardness to 3500lbs (yes this is unrealistic but so is killing 2 or 3 structures to disable flight). This stops the 1 plane 1 hanger run. It makes 2 guys kill themselves for 1 hanger.

Add more ack and even more will die. This increases the death per structure even higher.

Since ack is easy to kill by a lo and slo fighter add barrage balloons to make ack killing tougher.

Yes they can kill the balloons but in the mean time more fighters get up and kill even more of umm.

My point is to make their deaths per structure high enough some of them may decide to try a different tact.

To prevent milkrunning I also suggest that the field towns be capturable as well as the fields. To get flight enabled one side must own the town and the field. This would especially help the rampant milkrunning on the 512 x 512 maps. Field capture is to easy for 2 guys, 1 in a fp and 1 in an m3 to capture. It would enhance the gv war a bit especially if the towns and the fields both get vbases. Atleast until someone suicides the vhanger :)

We are all dweebs and folks will find away to game everything. Its there money and they can find their fun where they can. However, it seems atleast a few guys in here feel their ability to have fun has been overly impacted by the suicide nature of a few other folks.

All I was suggestion is a way to balance the impact without much fuss.

Jabos will still be the best way to raise a field and depending on what ht does in regards to field towns and strat objects hopefully bombers will have an equal roll.

Offline Wotan

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Limiting the impact of suicide jabos
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2002, 05:48:30 AM »
beetle it was guy with a high rank who got pissed for some reason switched sides took the cv and sailed it away to make it useless. Yes some folks are that bitter.

Offline Revvin

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Limiting the impact of suicide jabos
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2002, 06:59:45 AM »
I did'nt say you did either way Wotan 'yourself' was just a turn of phrase. Nobody really discusses the problem of the suicide defenders or the endless spawning brought on by the ridiculously low rebuild times but I guess this is because Aces High is mainly a furballers sim. There could be some ways to stop this but what's the point when the 'me me me me' 'gottawin'  'I pay my $14.95 and want to fly what I want' crowd will just get their way

Offline vatiAH

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Limiting the impact of suicide jabos
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2002, 07:02:00 AM »
Woton,

        I'm ashamed of those Bish raids.  There are 2 guys who regularly put those missions up and you will never find me in eithers missions.    

Vati66
Ductus Exemplo:  Lead by Example

Offline Innominate

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Limiting the impact of suicide jabos
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2002, 07:07:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by vatiAH
Woton,

        I'm ashamed of those Bish raids.  There are 2 guys who regularly put those missions up and you will never find me in eithers missions.    

Vati66


Suicide is never an intention of those raids.  Sure there are some pilots who can't divebomb for sh*t and kill themselves repeatedly, but suiciding makes you pretty worthless in a real attack.  Those who suicide, tend to do the least amount of damage.

It doesn't take a suicide attack to kill all of the hangars.  It's just as easy to kill them and survive as it is to kill them and die.  The only time I've seen regular suicide attacks is jabos diving on CVs.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2002, 07:12:02 AM by Innominate »

Offline Revvin

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Limiting the impact of suicide jabos
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2002, 07:15:32 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by vatiAH
Woton,

        I'm ashamed of those Bish raids.  There are 2 guys who regularly put those missions up and you will never find me in eithers missions.    

Vati66


Who? I've never seen anyone post a mission with the intent of suicide bombing whether I flew for Knights or Bishops (never flown Rook) I am sometimes ashamed of certain high ranking Bishops who hide the CV's so they can't be recaptured though.

Offline A4c7i9d

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Limiting the impact of suicide jabos
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2002, 07:39:58 AM »
Suiciding should be left alone.  Sometimes its the only way to stop a steamrolling advance.  Increase field toughness, definately increase the CV tougness.  Yes some people "lame" it... I know I'm one of those dweebs that will suicide a P47 into a CV over and over if I'm in the mood. :)

People say they are having their experience hurt by suiciding?  Well my experience gets hurt when my pony is getting jumped by 2 fw's right after I shot a La7 of someone's arse who, along with 1 other of my fellow countrymen zoom climb away from the fight because their precious K/Ds are at risk!  Pansies are overmodeled in this game and I demand it be fixed! :)

Ok.. i'll compromise on the suiciding.  Add a timer.  When "handle" loads bombs on their aircraft, they cannot load more bombs until X minutes has passed from when the last of their ordinace is release or they are killed.  This should probably not apply to bombers.  Thats one effective kamikazi attack at maximum, every X+10 minutes (assuming it takes 10 min at the minimum to get the bombs off on a target).  Then u either wait for bombs to become available or take off with no bombs/rockets.  This may cause people to save their suicide until they need it.  And if they get shot down enroute, no bombs for them until X minutes have passed.  People should definately be allowed to kamikazi, but maybe not as much as they do now.

This has been said thousands of times by now I'm sure:
Any arguments that compare this game to real life are useless IMO.  Its not realistic.  It can never be realistic.  Just because something happened IRL doesn't mean its a good idea to put it in a game.

[OFFTOPIC]
The CVs are pitiful.  They die too quick.  Make it take some effort to kill just one of the ships.  Make the ships regenerate in the cv as long as one ship is still in the water.  Let deck guns try and blow up torps before they hit.  Increase the amount of ordinance that it takes to sink the ships.  Yes they will be very powerful after these upgrades.  They SHOULD be.  Make every country have at least 1 CV spawning even if they dont have a port.  Have it spawn off the shore of a friendly base, but only if a port is not available.  This would prevent extreme unbalance of 1 country having 3 CVs and none being out there to oppose them.
[/OFFTOPIC]

Offline Wotan

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Limiting the impact of suicide jabos
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2002, 07:51:22 AM »
I dont wanna sound like I am after one set of guys.

What I think is that a bunch guys get in these missions and their goal is to get the base. "Damn the torpedos full speed ahead". Their goal is to level the field but they kill themselves in order to do it.

I have watched these guys from the tower as well as been in the air when their raids come. You dont drop your bombs at 600ft and expect to live. mostly then come in relatively lo 6 to 8k. Blow by all the nme fighters and fly straight into the ground. They can have no expectation of surviving doing a jabo run like that.

Their death per structure is high now. Quite a few drop their bombs so lo they either have blown themselves up or their bombs dont go off at all and they auger.

Sometimes these raids are over before they even do anything. A few times my squad was up together and we see a raid coming to a base. We ask if anyone can id the raid. We get typhs 7k.

I ask my guys "you wanna go there and help". The response is always, "No they will all be dead by the time we get there."

Also folks have said they have seen each country run their own version of these raids. So its certainly not just typhies or bish who do this.

It doesnt bother me at all that folks fly like this. I just wonder if it might be worth looking for ways to limit the impact of such raids.

Vati I know you and your guys dont fly these raids and the times when I encounter your squad its decent fight all round. I know most folks in ah dont suicide thats why I offered these suggestions with the hope of finding a way to limit the impact these few (on all sides) have on the rest of us.

Offline Revvin

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Limiting the impact of suicide jabos
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2002, 08:04:31 AM »
I know you're not going to name names but I get the general idea of who you are talking about organising these Bish typhoon raids but I really don't think that (if we're speaking about the same people here) plan these as suicide missions. If I fly jabo I plan to live, drop my ord, perhaps make a straffing run if possible but generally get in then get out to RTB.

Offline MrLars

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Limiting the impact of suicide jabos
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2002, 01:06:16 PM »
This is kind of funny, a few days ago I flew a Jabo run to a field that had about 20+ planes taking off from it. Having only rockets on my plane I decided to try to hit a fuel cell or two.
Diving in from 20K I realized I'd have only one chance to make a run because of all the defenders.

I fired the rocks from very low alt and missed all three of my targets. Then I saw a Typhoon on the rearm pad and thought about the last time I was vulched rearming so I let him live. My egress was simple, maintain 300+ and do low G jinks to avoid AAA and get the heck outa Dodge.

A single lone Spit chased me almost a full sector before breaking off but instead of being accused of running I get "Whoever the Bish was that just ran from baseXX to 52 after his Jabo run I salute you! You're the only one that tried to survive the sortie".

Now I'm confused, next time call me a runner would ya? :D

BTW, I would have turned to fight that spit but my F6F had way too much fuel to dance with a Spitty.

Offline Sever

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Limiting the impact of suicide jabos
« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2002, 02:31:06 PM »
Im a little confused. 20 guys take off in Tiffies with a couple a goons behind them. They then plaster the base and the town while making sure goons can get in to drop troops. Hmmmm......???? Is this lame or a pretty good tactic to use? If it is lame then why do we have the ability to make missions?:confused:

Offline Charon

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Limiting the impact of suicide jabos
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2002, 03:53:38 PM »
Quote
Why not set a time limit of say 10 seconds before an object is destroyed. If you die before that limit no damage will occur.


This might work, perhaps 5 seconds or even 2-3 seconds past impact. It could be turned off for historical situations like a Okinawa scenario, etc.

Charon

Offline Buzzbait

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Limiting the impact of suicide jabos
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2002, 03:55:09 PM »
S!

Actually the real issue is not Suicide Jabos.

It's bozo Fleet commanders who bring their fleets close inshore and park them on the beach just offshore from an airfield.

An Aircraft carrier took a minimum of a year to build and cost Billions in today's dollar terms.

A single engined aircraft cost a tiny fraction of that.

No Fleet commander worth his salt would do anything like what people do in the MA.  Fleets would be kept at a safe distance and CAP would be maintained.

How can anyone be stupid enough to plot a course for his fleet to sail just offshore, then leave that fleet completely unprotected?

Snooze you lose.

People do this currently because the fleets immediately respawn.

What is really needed is a longer respawn time so that tinpot admirals learn their lesson...   ;)

Offline Thrawn

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Limiting the impact of suicide jabos
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2002, 04:02:22 PM »
There's no reason to suicide...unless you just wanna.  You can take things down perfectly well without resorting to this tactic.

I like the perking the 1000 pounders idea.