Author Topic: Russian-Georgian war?! (Read 807 times)

Boroda · « **Reply #15 on:** September 12, 2002, 01:58:42 PM »

Hmm.. Sickboy, one note from the article you posted makes it untrustworthy:

According to Russian defense analyst Pavel Felgenhauer, in holding open arms talks with Yerevan, the Kremlin is trying to "scare away" the United States by "publicly doing things that were previously done discreetly or secretly. From Russia's point of view, what happens now in Georgia has certainly added to the importance of the Moscow-Yerevan axis because Georgia is increasingly pursuing what many in Moscow believe is an anti-Russian policy," Felgenhauer said.

Felgenhauer is a well known amazinhunk, a mean clown with a russophobia as an ideafix.

BTW, what is "CDI"?

Funked, I'll try to find Rumsfeld's statement and our foreign ministry answer. He said that after another Shevardnadze's hallucination about "unknown planes penetrating Georgian airspace", as usually - unaprooved, while Russian side can provide radar logs.

Russian diplomatic note sounds like it was written in 1940, with a special humour of a self-confident politician.

Diplomatic activity that is reported in Russian media now looks unbelievable. The most serious and... hmm... "warning"?... since maybe 1956. "We are fighting for our personal interest, and we don't give a damn about what you'll think".

A Soviet times joke: an exam at the Diplomatic corps academy. Students have to write a note to after Sovet sub torpedoed a civilian passenger ship in a harbour of one of the African countries. Proffesor tells one of the students: "Ok, everything is almost exellent, but you have 3 minor mistakes: "diddly off" is two words, "amazinhunk" is one word, and you have to write "Stupid Monkey" with capital letters, because you adress to a president of a soverign country.

We have a frightening trend: our government starts to use a good old method of distracting public opinion from the catastrophic internal affairs...

funkedup · « **Reply #16 on:** September 12, 2002, 02:05:24 PM »

I think the real issue is that Putin doesn't like the fact that Georgia turned to the US for help against terrorists. So he complains that the US-supported anti-terrorist effort in Georgia is so insufficient that an invasion is required. I think it's all bluster.

I think Georgia's sovereignity should be defended, but the terrorists must be crushed. If the anti-terror effort in Georgia is TRULY insufficient, then USA should increase the effort.

Krusher · « **Reply #17 on:** September 12, 2002, 02:13:54 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by funkedup
I think the real issue is that Putin doesn't like the fact that Georgia turned to the US for help against terrorists. So he complains that the US-supported anti-terrorist effort in Georgia is so insufficient that an invasion is required. I think it's all bluster.

I think Georgia's sovereignity should be defended, but the terrorists must be crushed. If the anti-terror effort in Georgia is TRULY insufficient, then USA should increase the effort.

The US-based Stratfor website, sometimes a good reflection of the views of the CIA, lambasted the recent Georgian sweep of the Pankisi Gorge, describing it as "toothless" and of benefit only to "al-Qaeda and its local Islamist allies".

Sikboy · « **Reply #18 on:** September 12, 2002, 02:16:43 PM »

Sorry Boroda, an ad hominim against one person quoted in the article does not invalidate the story. Felgenhauer is only used to provide one point of view. I agree that his language is meant to provoke, and indeed he does come off as a Russophobe, however, I believe that there is ample evidence that the Russian ties to Armenia are meant to try to re-exert some of their lost influence in the region. I personally don't see a problem with this. It is in Russia's best interest to maintain a presense in the region (duh lol) and Armenia is the most logical place to find a friend.

Anyhow, I thought the article gave a fairly even treatment of the situation.

And CDI (Center for Defense Information) Russia Weekly, is simply a collection of press peices on Russia.

-Sikboy

wulfie · « **Reply #19 on:** September 12, 2002, 02:21:22 PM »

Boroda,

Not alot of time here, so this is the short version.

You and I agree about Chechnya. I agree with everything you said.

My mentioning that no one can question the 'right' of 'Chechnya to want to secede' was to illustrate the point that you cannot really question the 'right' because it doesn't exist in the truest sense of the word.

If a small group of people wanted Chechnya to secede, they have a 'right' to secession only as long as their methods are deemed appropriate to the powers that can and will intervene.

The moment they revealed themselves as 'thugs', 'terrorists', etc. they effectively lost any 'right' they had - because important outside powers no longer supported them or their cause.

When I explained how each side has a 'right', I was trying to illustrate how silly it is for any side to claim a 'right' "because it is our right".

Russia didn't oppose the Chechen uprising because it has a 'right' to rule Chechnya. It opposed it because the leadership of Russia felt that was what had to be done, for many different reasons.

Also, the statement about 'defending against Russian aggressors' is hogwash. Probably bogus political talk meant for internal consumption.

I really won't have the time to post more about this for a couple of days.

I like the Russians. I like Putin (why is a very detailed answer I don't have time to get into right now - please don't assume I think he's Santa Claus). I have been against the 'freedom fighters' of Chechnya for a couple of years now - based on things I have seen/read/etc. as a result of my job in the military.

Mike/wulfie

funkedup · « **Reply #20 on:** September 12, 2002, 02:23:02 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Krusher

The US-based Stratfor website, sometimes a good reflection of the views of the CIA, lambasted the recent Georgian sweep of the Pankisi Gorge, describing it as "toothless" and of benefit only to "al-Qaeda and its local Islamist allies".

That would make sense. Vlad might just be trying to force the US to motivate the Georgians to kick some terrorist ass.

wulfie · « **Reply #21 on:** September 12, 2002, 02:25:27 PM »

Beware Stratfor. It sucks in general now. Too much 'what can we write to attract attention'. I lost all faith in them when one of the key people associated with Stratfor wrote an analysis just after 9/11/01 'declaring with asbolute certainty' that the terrorists managed to smuggle large explosive devices aboard all the airliners'. He came to this brilliant deduction by seeing 'the big explosions the aircraft made when they struck the twin towers'.

Apparently the guy had never seen an aircraft crash before when said aircraft was filled with jet fuel.

Rule #1 of analysis:

Don't analyze something you have no knolwedge of.

There's still some occasional good writing there, but when it went to subscription the writing was on the wall.

Mike/wulfie

Hangtime · « **Reply #22 on:** September 12, 2002, 02:59:04 PM »

Russia is allied with France.

You go, Edouard!

Morgoth · « **Reply #23 on:** September 12, 2002, 08:08:02 PM »

I think that Georgia would beat the hell out of Russia. They got great peaches, peanuts, chicks with big boobs ... toejam wrong country. My bad.

Sikboy · « **Reply #24 on:** September 12, 2002, 08:12:24 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Morgoth
I think that Georgia would beat the hell out of Russia. They got great peaches, peanuts, chicks with big boobs ...

Yeah, but they have Jimmy Carter and Ted Turner, so you KNOW they aren't looking for a fight

-Sikboy

Boroda · « **Reply #25 on:** September 13, 2002, 10:07:36 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Sikboy
Sorry Boroda, an ad hominim against one person quoted in the article does not invalidate the story. Felgenhauer is only used to provide one point of view.

Sorry, it's just my personal feelings about that amazinhunk...

Russia always supported Armenia and really helped it win the war with Azerbaijan. Without Russian help Armenia could be taken over by Moslim neighbours in 1992-93, with the repeat of 1915 slaughter as the result...

There are three Christian nations in Caucasus: Armenians, Georgians and Osetins.

Boroda · « **Reply #26 on:** September 13, 2002, 10:14:05 AM »

Wulfie, thank you.

About Rumsfeld. He made that statement ONLY about the accident with "unknown planes" bombing Pankisi Gorge, and also stated that the plane was Russian, that I doubt.

About Putin: living here I can say that I don't like many things he does. To sum it all up - IMHO again we have "all the steam going into the whistle". And being raised in a military family I have very small respect for secret police officers.

Boroda · « **Reply #27 on:** September 13, 2002, 10:15:42 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Morgoth
I think that Georgia would beat the hell out of Russia. They got great peaches, peanuts, chicks with big boobs ... toejam wrong country. My bad.

Morgoth, I bet you have been to Georgia!

All you said is true, except for your overestimation of Georgian military

Morgoth · « **Reply #28 on:** September 13, 2002, 12:12:10 PM »

Don't be so sure; the 1st Georgia Redneck Militia have been known to wipe out an entire platoon with one might spit of tobacco juice

wulfie · « **Reply #29 on:** September 13, 2002, 12:49:47 PM »

Boroda,

There are many different types of 'intelligence officers'. 'Secret Police' in my mind = CI Officers. FBI CI Agents in the USA, and KGB (now FSB) CI Officers within the Soviet Union (now Russia).

For what it's worth, Putin was a 'foriegn service' or 'offensive' Intelligence Officer. *In a professional sense*, I have alot of respect for the difficulty of his area of operations and for the work he did. He was busy outside of the Soviet Union (no Russia) for most of his career.

Mike/wulfie