Author Topic: War Could Unshackle Oil in Iraq  (Read 1235 times)

Offline Thrawn

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War Could Unshackle Oil in Iraq
« Reply #45 on: September 16, 2002, 08:52:55 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
i give you facts , you give me "what if's" this flame war is over , i hold the moral high ground

44MAG


I asked for two facts, you gave me neither.  As you didn't respond to the questions I asked, I expanded on them.  

"this flame war is over , i hold the moral high ground"

Where did I insult you?  How can you hold ground you just abbandoned and can't defend?  

I doubt the morality of any that's willing to sacrifice people's lives, so they can have cheaper gas!

Offline Sikboy

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War Could Unshackle Oil in Iraq
« Reply #46 on: September 16, 2002, 09:34:51 AM »
Why is it that when the US wants to remove Saddam from power, it's about oil, but when Russia and France want to lift the embargo, it's about starving children? We gotta hook up with their PR guys lol :)

This is something that really does make me sad though. If we were to depose Sadam, I would hope that we could help them build a new regime, one that could become a stable democratic regime. I know better than most the obsticles to this. One thing that could be a dealbreaker is if we extract the oil revenue from the country. I know that a lot of people in the US have a real problem with the concept of "Nation Building" But how are we with "Nation Stealing"? I certainly hope that if we take the government of Iraq away that we do what we can to insure that the new government is not only serving in the interest of the United States, but also in the interest of the Iraqi people. In order for that to happen, I believe that the US must ensure that Revenue from Iraqi oil sales stays in Iraq.

Of course, at the same time, I imagine that the US oil industry could be a great help to the new Iraqi government when it comes to upgrading technology, and modernizing their infrastructure. So we won't know until the dust settles, and then it will be too late.
 
-Sikboy
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Offline Ripsnort

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War Could Unshackle Oil in Iraq
« Reply #47 on: September 16, 2002, 10:05:23 AM »
Its NOT about oil 10bears, look outside the box..the following is long, take the time to educate yourself:  Here's a short sample of the report, you can see the full report at
http://www.state.gov/g/inl/rls/fs/index.cfm

Quote
A Decade of Deception and Defiance serves as a background paper for President George W. Bush's September 12th speech to the United Nations General Assembly. This document provides specific examples of how Iraqi President Saddam Hussein has systematically and continually violated 16 United Nations Security Council resolutions over the past decade. This document is not designed to catalogue all of the violations of UN resolutions or other abuses of Saddam Hussein's regime over the years.

For more than a decade, Saddam Hussein has deceived and defied the will and resolutions of the United Nations Security Council by, among other things: continuing to seek and develop chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons, and prohibited long-range missiles; brutalizing the Iraqi people, including committing gross human rights violations and crimes against humanity; supporting international terrorism; refusing to release or account for prisoners of war and other missing individuals from the Gulf War era; refusing to return stolen Kuwaiti property; and working to circumvent the UN's economic sanctions.

The Administration will periodically provide information on these and other aspects of the threat posed to the international community by Saddam Hussein.

Saddam Hussein's Defiance of United Nations Resolutions Saddam Hussein has repeatedly violated sixteen United Nations Security Council Resolutions (UNSCRs) designed to ensure that Iraq does not pose a threat to international peace and security. In addition to these repeated violations, he has tried, over the past decade, to circumvent UN economic sanctions against Iraq, which are reflected in a number of other resolutions. As noted in the resolutions, Saddam Hussein was required to fulfill many obligations beyond the withdrawal of Iraqi forces from Kuwait. Specifically, Saddam Hussein was required to, among other things: allow international weapons inspectors to oversee the destruction of his weapons of mass destruction; not develop new weapons of mass destruction; destroy all of his ballistic missiles with a range greater than 150 kilometers; stop support for terrorism and prevent terrorist organizations from operating within Iraq; help account for missing Kuwaitis and other individuals; return stolen Kuwaiti property and bear financial liability for damage from the Gulf War; and he was required to end his repression of the Iraqi people. Saddam Hussein has repeatedly violated each of the following resolutions:

 UNSCR 678 - November 29, 1990

   * Iraq must comply fully with UNSCR 660 (regarding Iraq's illegal invasion of Kuwait) "and all subsequent relevant resolutions."

   * Authorizes UN Member States "to use all necessary means to uphold and implement resolution 660 and all subsequent relevant resolutions and to restore international peace and security in the     area."
 UNSCR 686 - March 2, 1991
   * Iraq must release prisoners detained during the Gulf War.
   * Iraq must return Kuwaiti property seized during the Gulf War.

   * Iraq must accept liability under international law for damages from its illegal invasion of Kuwait.

 UNSCR 687 - April 3, 1991

   * Iraq must "unconditionally accept" the destruction, removal or
     rendering harmless "under international supervision" of all
     "chemical and biological weapons and all stocks of agents and all
     related subsystems and components and all research, development,
     support and manufacturing facilities."

   * Iraq must "unconditionally agree not to acquire or develop nuclear
     weapons or nuclear-weapons-usable material" or any research,
     development or manufacturing facilities.

   * Iraq must "unconditionally accept" the destruction, removal or
     rendering harmless "under international supervision" of all
     "ballistic missiles with a range greater than 150 KM and related
     major parts and repair and production facilities."

   * Iraq must not "use, develop, construct or acquire" any weapons of
     mass destruction.

   * Iraq must reaffirm its obligations under the Nuclear
     Non-Proliferation Treaty.

   * Creates the United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM) to verify
     the elimination of Iraq's chemical and biological weapons programs
     and mandated that the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA)
     verify elimination of Iraq's nuclear weapons program.

   * Iraq must declare fully its weapons of mass destruction programs.

   * Iraq must not commit or support terrorism, or allow terrorist
     organizations to operate in Iraq.

   * Iraq must cooperate in accounting for the missing and dead kuwaitis and others.

   * Iraq must return Kuwaiti property seized during the Gulf War.

 UNSCR 688 - April 5, 1991

   * "Condemns" repression of Iraqi civilian population, "the
     consequences of which threaten international peace and security."

   * Iraq must immediately end repression of its civilian population.

   * Iraq must allow immediate access to international humanitarian
     organizations to those in need of assistance.

 UNSCR 707 - August 15, 1991

   * "Condemns" Iraq's "serious violation" of UNSCR 687.

   * "Further condemns" Iraq's noncompliance with IAEA and its
     obligations under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

   * Iraq must halt nuclear activities of all kinds until the Security
     Council deems Iraq in full compliance.

   * Iraq must make a full, final and complete disclosure of all aspects of its weapons of mass destruction and missile programs.

   * Iraq must allow UN and IAEA inspectors immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.

   * Iraq must cease attempts to conceal or move weapons of mass
     destruction, and related materials and facilities.

   * Iraq must allow UN and IAEA inspectors to conduct inspection
     flights throughout Iraq.

   * Iraq must provide transportation, medical and logistical support
     for UN and IAEA inspectors.

 UNSCR 715 - October 11, 1991

   * Iraq must cooperate fully with UN and IAEA inspectors.

 UNSCR 949 - October 15, 1994

   * "Condemns" Iraq's recent military deployments toward Kuwait.

   * Iraq must not utilize its military or other forces in a hostile
     manner to threaten its neighbors or UN operations in Iraq.

   * Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors.

   * Iraq must not enhance its military capability in southern Iraq.

 UNSCR 1051 - March 27, 1996

   * Iraq must report shipments of dual-use items related to weapons of
     mass destruction to the UN and IAEA.

   * Iraq must cooperate fully with UN and IAEA inspectors and allow
     immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.

 UNSCR 1060 - June 12, 1996

   * "Deplores" Iraq's refusal to allow access to UN inspectors and
     Iraq's "clear violations" of previous UN resolutions.

   * Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors and allow
     immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.

 UNSCR 1115 - June 21, 1997

   * "Condemns repeated refusal of Iraqi authorities to allow access" to UN inspectors, which constitutes a "clear and flagrant violation"
     of UNSCR 687, 707, 715, and 1060.

   * Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors and allow
     immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.

   * Iraq must give immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access to
     Iraqi officials whom UN inspectors want to interview.

 UNSCR 1134 - October 23, 1997

   * "Condemns repeated refusal of Iraqi authorities to allow access" to UN inspectors, which constitutes a "flagrant violation" of UNSCR     687, 707, 715, and 1060.

   * Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors and allow
     immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.

   * Iraq must give immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access to
     Iraqi officials whom UN inspectors want to interview.

 UNSCR 1137 - November 12, 1997

   * "Condemns the continued violations by Iraq" of previous UN
     resolutions, including its "implicit threat to the safety of"
     aircraft operated by UN inspectors and its tampering with UN
     inspector monitoring equipment.

   * Reaffirms Iraq's responsibility to ensure the safety of UN
     inspectors.

   * Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors and allow
     immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.

 UNSCR 1154 - March 2, 1998

   * Iraq must cooperate fully with UN and IAEA weapons inspectors and
     allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access, and notes
     that any violation would have the "severest consequences for Iraq."

 UNSCR 1194 - September 9, 1998

   * "Condemns the decision by Iraq of 5 August 1998 to suspend
     cooperation with" UN and IAEA inspectors, which constitutes "a
     totally unacceptable contravention" of its obligations under UNSCR
     687, 707, 715, 1060, 1115, and 1154.

   * Iraq must cooperate fully with UN and IAEA weapons inspectors, and
     allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.

 UNSCR 1205 - November 5, 1998

   * "Condemns the decision by Iraq of 31 October 1998 to cease
     cooperation" with UN inspectors as "a flagrant violation" of UNSCR
     687 and other resolutions.

   * Iraq must provide "immediate, complete and unconditional cooperation" with UN and IAEA inspectors.
[/i]

This is about 40,000 characters long, please see the full report at the website up above.

Offline Heater

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War Could Unshackle Oil in Iraq
« Reply #48 on: September 16, 2002, 10:48:12 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort


Hehe!~

Hey, paying $1.59 here..whats it in your area Lazs?


Rip I pay that per liter, so don't squeak yet :D
HiTech is a DWEEB-PUTZ!
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Offline Ripsnort

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War Could Unshackle Oil in Iraq
« Reply #49 on: September 16, 2002, 10:51:17 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Heater


Rip I pay that per liter, so don't squeak yet :D


hehe, I'm not!  I think thats a bargain quite honestly....

Offline Ripsnort

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War Could Unshackle Oil in Iraq
« Reply #50 on: September 16, 2002, 11:31:59 AM »
Personally, I'm still sitting on the fence in regards to an Iraq invasion...but, I can't help but think, whats more important...a madman with Nuclear weapons willing to sell suitcase nukes to Al Queda so that someone can complete the job in New York? Or prevention of the aforementioned?

Glad I'm not the one making the decision....

Offline Toad

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War Could Unshackle Oil in Iraq
« Reply #51 on: September 16, 2002, 11:33:23 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sikboy
.... If we were to depose Sadam, I would hope that we could help them build a new regime, one that could become a stable democratic regime....  In order for that to happen, I believe that the US must ensure that Revenue from Iraqi oil sales stays in Iraq.
-Sikboy


Well, the Taliban got "deposed" and there's a multi-national effort at nation building going on there.

One would think all involved are doing the best they can. About all one can hope for, isn't it? It's pretty clear that WRT government, the Afghan's certainly aren't doing any WORSE than they were under the Taliban and there's simple evidence that they're doing better. Return of refugees, less starvation, public works projects, etc.

I don't think it's up to the US alone to "ensure" or do anything else about/with Iraqi oil revenue. After all, this is what the UN was founded to handle, isn't it? This nation-rebuilding thing? Another shining opportunity for the world community to help a particular country out of the mess it has gotten into. I'm sure the US would be a part of the effort. But if this UN thing is going to work... it can't be us alone.

And if the UN nation building thing won't work, due to lack of participation, interest or anything else... well then if the US does it alone I guess those who sat on the sidelines really shouldn't have much input, right?

Not that I'm for a US intervention at this point, because I'm not.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Kieran

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War Could Unshackle Oil in Iraq
« Reply #52 on: September 16, 2002, 12:14:40 PM »
I think one only needs to look back at postwar Japan and Germany to see what can happen if rebuilding is done right.

Offline Rude

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Re: War Could Unshackle Oil in Iraq
« Reply #53 on: September 16, 2002, 12:30:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by 10Bears
Yeah Kieran and Toad... Ole 10Bears is right sometimes

A U.S.-led ouster of Iraqi President Saddam Hussein could open a bonanza for American oil companies long banished from Iraq, scuttling oil deals between Baghdad and Russia, France and other countries, and reshuffling world petroleum markets, according to industry officials and leaders of the Iraqi opposition.

Although senior Bush administration officials say they have not begun to focus on the issues involving oil and Iraq, American and foreign oil companies have already begun maneuvering for a stake in the country's huge proven reserves of 112 billion barrels of crude oil, the largest in the world outside Saudi Arabia.


snip

WashingtonPost

What was that you were sayin' bout me going on about it's all about the oil?... heh


Ya know...not having ever met you, I'm sure you're probably a good guy....however, when it comes to your posts in this forum, you appear to be simpleton.

To imply in any way shape or form that only oil motivates action takin towards Sadaam and his regime is laughable. In addition, you seem to have a problem with Ameicans gaining advantage or profit, especially if it comes off the back of a dictator and a murderer. Who would you like to see benefit from a change in Iraq? (and don't post dribble about the Iraqi citizens....that's a given for anyone with average intelligence).

Offline Charon

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War Could Unshackle Oil in Iraq
« Reply #54 on: September 16, 2002, 12:37:33 PM »
Quote
show of hands of people in the oil business? personally, not a friend of a friend. I deal with it everday, drilling from the midcontinent of the US. I work for ExxonMobil. Iraqi oil is used everyday. Oil is the life blood of the world, good or bad.


Raises hand. Do you get National Petroleum News, Dnil? You might not if you're too far upstream.

Iraq, like the Gulf War, is about oil. Period. Now, Saddam is a bad guy who has done bad things and may do bad things in the future. Like many countries, Iraq has ignored a variety of UN sanctions. But without that big pool of oil, who cares? The United States and Europe don't when the oil isn't involved, or when the incident isn't on a border or poses an international power opportunity/threat.

Weapons of mass destruction? My biggest concerns would be N. Korea and PRC.

The reality is that Iraq represents both an opportunity and threat where oil is concerned. The opportunities for the major MULTINATIONAL oil companies like British Petroleum, ExxonMobil, Royal Dutch Shell/Texaco (mergers really have shrunk the number of players in this industry) are great, and a valid threat to the regional oil supply exists with Saddam in power.

Post 911 provided a unique opportunity where Afghan pipelines were concerned. Perhaps this effort against Iraq is just a realization that a door has been opened. I don't believe in the 911 Conspiracy BS, but opportunists know an opportunity when they see one. And just like the Democrats, the Republicans, and specifically the Bush candidacy, do have favored patrons to appease. In Bush/Cheney's case - the oil industry.

Rip fully noted the public message designed to make us feel good about the potential war. You can almost watch the same PR progression as in the Gulf War, where Bush Sr. fished around for an issue that the public would get behind other than "blood for oil."

Back then, the first angle attempted was Iraqi atrocities (even hired Hill and Knowlton for message development). Remember, Saddam was specifically called a "Hitler," but for some odd reason we never did the unconditional surrender thing. When the babies in the incubators story failed the truth test, the message moved on to weapons of mass destruction, which played well in the polls. And, of course, returning the great Kuwaiti democracy to its rightful place.

Today, it started with the terrorist angle, but that apparently was a dead end. It then went on to the weapons of mass destruction angle, which worked well the first time but generated no real traction at home or internationally this time around. Now, we're at the UN sanctions angle -- but only if the country involved is Iraq. Even Cheney has started to acknowledge the oil angle in his most recent speeches. Perhaps they are starting to realize that many Americans hold Laz's views.

Major benefits of Iraq war:

1. Oil development and production windfall
2. Securing regional oil supply from threat
3. Greater leverage against OPEC/greater competition/ not necessarily lower prices at the pump but perhaps less price volatility

Threats:

Bin Laden actually gets his region-wide holy war (goal of 911), friendly regimes are overthrown, worldwide financial disruption, WW2 level conflict. Probably an overblown concern.

There is a legal justification for this conflict, and we can find examples for a moral justification. But don't think for a second that we would be pushing for this war without that big lake of oil. Given oil's status as a critical national resource, for both the US and many other countries, we have to ask ourselves if the resource is worth the costs and risks. Perhaps it is, but I felt better about it when Iraqi tanks were rolling through Kuwait.

Charon
« Last Edit: September 16, 2002, 09:25:42 PM by Charon »

Offline Ripsnort

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War Could Unshackle Oil in Iraq
« Reply #55 on: September 16, 2002, 12:54:04 PM »
Much more than a public message Charon, go to the link, read it all.  They list all the UN security sanctions that Iraq has failed to comply with.

Offline GtoRA2

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Ha!
« Reply #56 on: September 16, 2002, 01:16:27 PM »
We can't get 92 in the bay area now, but 91 is going from 1.65 to 1.90.


 lol Sucks to drive a muclecar now lol!

Offline Sikboy

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War Could Unshackle Oil in Iraq
« Reply #57 on: September 16, 2002, 01:58:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad

Well, the Taliban got "deposed" and there's a multi-national effort at nation building going on there.

I don't think it's up to the US alone to "ensure" or do anything else about/with Iraqi oil revenue. After all, this is what the UN was founded to handle, isn't it? This nation-rebuilding thing? Another shining opportunity for the world community to help a particular country out of the mess it has gotten into. I'm sure the US would be a part of the effort. But if this UN thing is going to work... it can't be us alone.


Toad.

I wouldn't really want to compare the events in post Taliban Afghanistan with those in Post Hussien Iraq. I believe that Afghanistan is almost certainly doomed to failure at this point. The number of factors standing in the way of actual democratic reform are staggaring. Of all the indicators for potential democracy Afghanistan has none that I can think of.

In Iraq on the other hand, I think that there is hope. In Iraq the real trick I think is ensuring a new distibutino of power among the Iraqi people. If we can open education, and spread the oil wealth, we might be able to reap a crop of democracy.

If we go in there as part of a UN mandate, then yes, I should hope the UN will help with the rebuilding effort. But if we move without the consent of the United Nations, then I hope that we will take every effort we can to build a democratic regime that is in the best insterest of the US and Iraqi people.  I also think that if we, the people of the United States,  concerned ourselves with this goal, that we would be far more effective than the UN at moving towards this end. In the end, it could be the best use ever for our unilateral appraoch to foreign policy.

-Sikboy
You: Blah Blah Blah
Me: Meh, whatever.

Offline Thrawn

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War Could Unshackle Oil in Iraq
« Reply #58 on: September 16, 2002, 02:12:40 PM »
Sikboy, do you think the US Executive Branch still wants stability in that region?

Offline Ripsnort

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War Could Unshackle Oil in Iraq
« Reply #59 on: September 16, 2002, 02:23:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
Sikboy, do you think the US Executive Branch still wants stability in that region?


Surely you are not suggesting that they want the area destablized? Please do tell why they would, meanwhile, I need to check for any black helicoptors overhead,....afk 2 min. ;)