Ta 152 charts, test and comparison tests.

[Wilbus]

Rgr Pyro, thanks for answering.

What about the GM1 though? The speed is quite much off acording to the speeds the H-1 did reach using GM1 above 35,000 feet.

Both that and it reaches it's max speed at the same alt as the real life H-0 did (bout 33-35k), right below the maximum boost altitude.

Is the GM1 modelled?

[PvtPyls]

Originally posted by Wilbus
To add a thing, nothing to do with this story though. Ta152's was, despite what has been said, never used to cover 262's during take off and landing nor did they cover any other planes during take off and landing.

I happen to have documentation that says the TA152 was used to cover me262s during takeoff and landing, "Warplanes of the Luftwaffe" by David Donald. Not trying to start an argument just letting you know it is printed.

[Wilbus]

The book is wrong PvtPylys, I have it too. It's a myth, much like the one with Mk 103 30mm gun in 109 K etc.

Overall the book is very good though.

[Turbot]

[Turbot]

From table if I understand it right:

10700 meters alt is 35104.56 feet

732 kph = 454.94 MPH w/ MW50


9500 meters alt is 31167.59 feet

755 kph = 469.23 MPH w/ GM1



From chart I determine sea level speed  (I don't understand what boost is on in the chart where I am reading this but here is number:

554.5 kph  or 344.62 mph

This number is closest to the w/o boost number on Aces High chart  which near as I can make out:

AH Ta 152 at 330 mph

(or so no graduations on chart for precise measure).   This documentation (assuming this is official german document?)would seem to indeed show the AH 152 H-1 is slow by a significant measure or some 15 mph even at sea level?



(I don' t understand at all even to guess the other words)

In any case where I am most curious  is how do you determine acceleration?  This is where I feel our 152 doesn't live up to what I read about.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Turbot
From table if I understand it right:

10700 meters alt is 35104.56 feet

732 kph = 454.94 MPH w/ MW50


9500 meters alt is 31167.59 feet

755 kph = 469.23 MPH w/ GM1


From chart I determine sea level speed  (I don't understand what boost is on in the chart where I am reading this but here is number:

554.5 kph  or 344.62 mph

This number is closest to the w/o boost number on Aces High chart  which near as I can make out:

Looking at the AH Chart (that Wilbus still had that goes to 35K) I got these speeds :

Alt   Military Power/ Wep

AH Chart 35K  451/456

You just posted:

35104.56 feet   455 MPH w/ MW50

That seems pretty close to me.


AH Chart 31K 436 / 456

you just posted:

31167.59 feet   469.23 MPH w/ GM1

Possibly 13 mph off or ~3% from your charted speed. That seems reasonably close (but obviously off a bit) to me as well.

0K 333 / 366

You posted 344 but you don't know if it is WEP or non-WEP?

(I don't understand what boost is on in the chart

So the AH aircraft is either 11 mph too slow (~3% again) or it is 22 mph too fast (~6%)?

Which are you saying?

Do all of these numbers check with what you are trying to tell Pyro?

[fats]

Probably one of the longest threads in the usenet flite-sim group was about P-51 and how its top speed was totally porked at altitude in WB. The difference was %5 too slow. Probably reached 500+ posts.

Back to the topic...


// fats

[Turbot]

Originally posted by Toad


So the AH aircraft is either 11 mph too slow (~3% again) or it is 22 mph too fast (~6%)?

Which are you saying?

Do all of these numbers check with what you are trying to tell Pyro?

Maybe due to programming restrictions this is as close as they can model the actual speeds.  However, you left off the last part of my original message - it's the acceleration that I have the most questions about.

[Toad]

Well then, do you have any documents that show acceleration from one speed to another at a particular altitude?

Have you compared these to the acceleraton of the AH Ta-152? Not tweaking you, it's just that if you have concerns, there's going to have to be some place to start, some place on can point to and then go from there.

Sorry for my mistake. Seems about 95% of your post dealt with speed at various altitudes.

[Wilbus]

Toad, don't think I have said the plane reached 469 mph at 31k, specially not with GM1.

GM1 injection was only used above the maximum boost altitude, which in the case of the Jumo 213 E engine, was 35k (10,700 meters to be exact).

The new red line I've put in on the old 30k+ chart shows the real Ta152 H-1 speed using GM1 injection at the best altitude (41k).

[Turbot]

Originally posted by Turbot
From table if I understand it right:

10700 meters alt is 35104.56 feet

732 kph = 454.94 MPH w/ MW50


9500 meters alt is 31167.59 feet

755 kph = 469.23 MPH w/ GM1



From chart I determine sea level speed  (I don't understand what boost is on in the chart where I am reading this but here is number:

554.5 kph  or 344.62 mph

This number is closest to the w/o boost number on Aces High chart  which near as I can make out:

AH Ta 152 at 330 mph

(or so no graduations on chart for precise measure).   This documentation (assuming this is official german document?)would seem to indeed show the AH 152 H-1 is slow by a significant measure or some 15 mph even at sea level?



(I don' t understand at all even to guess the other words)

In any case where I am most curious  is how do you determine acceleration?  This is where I feel our 152 doesn't live up to what I read about.

[Wilbus]

Determining acceleration on a prop plane is very very complex. This link might help some, best I found at the moment, I know I have a better one that explains acceleration somewhere.

Determening acceleration on a prop planes isn't as easy as doing it for normal cars or jet planes as the prop it self servers as a rotating wing, it pulls the plane forward but it also slows it down, This is the reason gliders and jet accelerate very well (thinking about Gliders in dives) while prop planes takes longer time. Of course a WW2 fighter will outaccelerate a glider with eas though.

The prop is also the reason no Prop plane can ever go supersonic.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Wilbus
Toad, don't think I have said the plane reached 469 mph at 31k, specially not with GM1.
 

Didn't say you did.

Turbot said it:

Turbot:

9500 meters alt is 31167.59 feet

755 kph = 469.23 MPH w/ GM1

I merely pointed out that the old 35K AH chart you saved and you posted in another thread shows about 456 at that altitude. Not exact but not totally out of the ball park either.

[Toad]

Turbot, you made a post in which 95% of the comments relate to speeds that you have found on some chart.

Here's what you concluded after the major part of your post:

Turbo:

This documentation (assuming this is official german document?)would seem to indeed show the AH 152 H-1 is slow by a significant measure or some 15 mph even at sea level

I pointed out that your number makes the AH Ta-152 either too FAST or too SLOW... depending on which power rating your chart uses... which apparently you can't determine.

Further, you apparently don't know if it's an official source document or not.

So what would you have Pyro change based on this information you just provided?

It's too fast or too slow IF we can figure out which power setting is being used in the possibly official or possibly unofficial document.

This is what I've been saying in the other thread. Figure out WHAT it is you object to, QUANTIFY it over the altitude range and tell him where you got the information you are using.

Your post doesn't seem to do that.

So now it's not speed but acceleration, correct?

Well, as Wilbus pointed out that's a complex equation. Got any source documentation for those numbers? If not, what do you expect Pyro to do?

[Glasses]

Hey I want those 13mph . Up again!