Author Topic: P47, P51, P38...the German view......  (Read 11272 times)

Offline worr

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P47, P51, P38...the German view......
« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2002, 09:22:39 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy
Well, true, but given the average fighter pilot's skill at aircraft recognition in WWII... ;)


I forgot to mention the L's were left natural metal finish. :)

Actually the average fighter pilot had a trained eye for such things. They invested a bit of time and effort into IDing ac types, for obvious reasons.

Worr, out

Offline Fancy

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P47, P51, P38...the German view......
« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2002, 02:04:26 PM »
On logical flaw that a lot of people seem to make when discussing airplane durability is that you are generally talking about a pretty erratic and inscrutable phenomenon.  There are several different ways to hit a plane just right to make it fall apart (with ample caliber) and also ways to not put a scratch on it really (given same caliber).  I'm sure AH randomizes damage somewhat to reflect this.  It's not a matter of,"oh I fly in a Typhoon, so I can take 5 hits with 20mms before taking any critcal damage".

Offline Puke

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P47, P51, P38...the German view......
« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2002, 02:40:48 PM »
Quote
The real reasons we do not have anything resembling a real WWII environment is mainly because...


Until there is value to your life in AH, this will never resemble a WW2 environment.  If you die and cannot play again until the next month's payment of Aces High, I bet we'd see more squadron tactics and something more akin to a real war.

Offline Guppy

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P47, P51, P38...the German view......
« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2002, 11:53:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by worr


I forgot to mention the L's were left natural metal finish. :)
Yeah, that'd do it. :)

Looking at the colour plates in Osprey's P-38 Lightning Aces of the ETO/MTO shows some unusual combinations. There's a J-10 in natural metal in June '44, a J-15 in olive drab in August, and then a different J-15 in natural metal in September, all from the same squadron (434th FS / 479th FG). :confused:

Quote
Actually the average fighter pilot had a trained eye for such things. They invested a bit of time and effort into IDing ac types, for obvious reasons.
Sure, but a lot of mistakes were still (understandably) made in the heat of the moment.

"Flight Lieutenant Tony Gaze of 610 Squadron recorded more instances of being fired on by Yanks than Huns during the last week of 1944, including two occasions when his squadron was attacked by Mustangs. On 1 January, Gaze managed to take off and sneak in behind and below a formation of eight FW190s, shooting down the trailer unobserved. The German formation then broke up as two Mustangs dove in at them from above, and as more aircraft entered the tumult Gaze chose to climb above the fracas, avoiding the danger of flak from both sides of the front line, which was firing at anything with wings regardless of how marked. From this position he witnessed the American pilots downing a Typhoon which had bravely joined the fray."

(from http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mantis/FW/FW.htm - a very interesting page, although mainly aimed at wargamers.)
« Last Edit: September 21, 2002, 11:56:59 PM by Guppy »

Offline worr

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P47, P51, P38...the German view......
« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2002, 05:58:45 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy
Sure, but a lot of mistakes were still (understandably) made in the heat of the moment.


Very understandable. ;)

Ever see C.C. Jordan's page on the 38? He has a nice section there on profile views...and how tiny the 38 actually is when it is horizontal.

Worr, out

Offline Mino

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P47, P51, P38...the German view......
« Reply #35 on: September 22, 2002, 07:15:23 PM »
Alright, now....

Why on earth did the LW call the P-38 the "Forked Tail Devil"?

By all accounts should it not have been referred to as the "Porked Tailed Panzie"?

Anyone have a plausible explanation? :confused:

Offline fdiron

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P47, P51, P38...the German view......
« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2002, 07:22:59 PM »
LW fighter pilots didnt call the P38 the 'Forked Tail Devil'.  It was German transport pilots who named it that in the Med.

Offline Tuborg

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P47, P51, P38...the German view......
« Reply #37 on: September 22, 2002, 07:59:10 PM »
'Forked Tail Devil' must be an US invention. Never heard of it in German. "Schwanzgabelteufel? LMAO. But it's true, it was very feared among the groundtroups.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2002, 08:02:29 PM by Tuborg »

Offline worr

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« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2002, 10:08:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by fdiron
LW fighter pilots didnt call the P38 the 'Forked Tail Devil'.  


Negative. I came from the Luftwaffe, not the Wehrmacht. From the MTO.

der Gabelschwanz Teufel. Spoke with a vet from the 1st FG...who returned to the states as a trainer. He heard the term only afterwards...they picked it up from the LW POWs.

Worr, out
« Last Edit: September 22, 2002, 10:11:13 PM by worr »

Offline Shiva

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P47, P51, P38...the German view......
« Reply #39 on: September 22, 2002, 11:16:47 PM »
Quote
"...From this position he witnessed the American pilots downing a Typhoon which had bravely joined the fray."


IIRC, the Typhoon was taken out of service for a period during the BoB because its planform was similar enough to the FW-190 that British gunners were shooting at them. I'm not surprised that a group of American pilots might mistake a Typhoon for a Butcherbird in the heat of a dogfight, especially if they were recently-arrived.

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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P47, P51, P38...the German view......
« Reply #40 on: September 22, 2002, 11:18:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by niklas


"They" would be...

Americans never showed up alone. You go after one, the other gets at your tail. I donīt think he was talking about a 1:1 situation....

niklas


For the first three months or so, the P-38 was outnumbered by the Germans by as little as 4:1 and as much as 20:1 and more. It wasn't the Americans who weren't alone. Try reading some AARs from the time period. The first group of P-38s were most often outnumbered by the enemy at a rate of 10:1. The Germans never attacked much until the P-47s had to turn around and go home.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #41 on: September 22, 2002, 11:29:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ossie
It must be a lot easier to perform flap-dependant maneuvers in AH than in real life, simply because we can screw up and try again (read: Tommy McGuire). I would not be surprised if the P-38L in AH has the same maneuvering potential as the real life version (and vice verce) in regards to flap usage, the key word being potential. It takes a lot more pilot input to increase the turn rate in a 38 than it does in many other airplanes.
It would probably be impossible for the German pilots to have identified which version of P-38 they were facing, but up through '43 there were probably not a lot of L's flying around. The F's and G's and H's had a lot of teething problems that were ironed out with the late J's and L's. Factoring in relative pilot quality/familiarity adds a huge part to the equation.
Durability is just a wierd thing altogether, especially in an online environment, such that it can be hard to judge one way or the other. One day it may go down in one hit, the next day it may take ten.


What happened to Tommy McGuire had absolutely nothing to do with flaps. Not at all. Most likely, the engine on the inside of his turn failed to respond when he pushed the throttles forward, and caused it to snap roll inverted.

And exactly what is it that leads you to believe it takes more pilot effort to turn a P-38? In reality, the yoke gave the P-38 pilot an advantage, he could easily apply all of his upper body strength. And no p-38 pilot I've had the honor to speak with said it was a high effort plane as far as moving the controls is concerned. Quite the contrary, they said the control moved easily, and were quite smooth and responsive. The only time they were heavy was when you were in compression. It resisted rolling, because it had broad chord ailerons, but having two hands to make aileron input alleviated that problem, and once there was power assist on the ailerons, the P-38 rolled very fast, especially at high speed. if you knew how to manage the throttles a P-38 could snap roll so hard you'd hit your head on the canopy.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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P47, P51, P38...the German view......
« Reply #42 on: September 23, 2002, 12:10:11 AM »
Galland always talked the P-38 down in his writings and public speaking. But when he was invited to a gathering of World War II fighter pilots at Maxwell AFB, he confessed to the fact that John Lowell handed him his bellybutton even though Galland had a clear advantage when they merged. Had Lowell not been low on fuel and a long way from home, Galland would likely never have lived to tell his stories.

When the P-38s first arrived, and went operational, Galland himself ordered that single engine fighters be transfered from night operations to day operations, because the P-38s had almost completely stopped bomber losses on their first few missions. Once the Lightning arrived, the Me 110 could no longer attack the bombers unmolested, and neither could the Me 109 or FW 190.

On 3 Nov. 1943 P-38s escorted bombers to Wilhemshaven.  While the German
fighters were, as a result of the efforts of the P-38 drivers, only able to
shoot down three bombers, German fighter losses were sufficiently heavy, II/JGS
suffering particularly badly  (curiously, the 55FG pilots only claimed three
e/a destroyed), that Gen. Galland held a special meeting with I Jagdkorps'
division commanders the next day.  One of the key decisions made at this
meeting was to have  the "wild sow" single-engine night fighter force
transferred to day jobs to counter the P-38s.

 The Germans thought the P-51 had the best range and the best climb rate? That ought to tell you how valuable the opinion of that person should be. Galland was noted for being full of crap.

The P-38 was actually quite durable, the wing spar was stainless steel. There are reports of P-38s colliding with telephone poles and other planes, with the other planes and the telephone poles coming out on the losing end. Jack Ilfrey collided with a 109, and lost about six feet of wing, while the 109 spun in out of control, due to the loss of an entire wing, Ilfrey returned to base, and landed safely. A P-38 from the same group hit a telephone pole on a strafing run, cutting the pole in half, while the P-38 lost a prop and suffered engine damage, the pilot returned to base and landed safely.  While the P-38 was not without its faults, being fragile was not one of them. It was common to have P-38s land even when they were so badly bent from overstress in dives or turns that the controls were nearly jammed, and the planes had to be scrapped. Many P-38s landed with holes in their wings you could stand in, missing wing sections, holes all the way through engines you could stick your arm through, and even a couple with one tail boom shot away.


The 55FG began operations out of England on 15 Oct., 1943, one day after
Black Thursday when some 60 B-17s were lost on the second Schweinfurt
raid.  First encounter with Luftwaffe on 3 Nov., shot down 3 Me-109 with
no loss to selves.  On 5 Nov., down five Me-109s with no loss.  On 13
Nov., in a sprawling, large-scale battle, shot down 3 FW-190, 2 Ju-88, 1
Me-109, 1 Me-210 but lost 5 P-38s shot down.  Two more were lost due to
engine problems.  On 29 Nov. 7 P-38s were shot down for the loss of no
German planes

20FG entered N. Euro. combat at the end of Dec, '43. Did not appear to
suffer from the morale and leadership problems of the 55FG.  First
contacted Luftwaffe on 29 Jan. '44.  Downed 3 FW-190, 3 Me-110, 3 Me-210,
1 Me-109.  No P-38s lost.  3 FWs downed by Lindol Graham, who used only
his single 20mm cannon, 12 shots per plane. (Lindol later crashed and was
killed while attempting to kill the fleeing crew of an Me-110 he had just
forced down in a low-level fight.  The two men were floundering across a
snow-covered field and it appeared that Lindol attempted to hit them with
his props.  His plane seemed to hit the ground, then bounce back up,
soaring into a chandelle, then falling off on its nose and diving straight
into the ground.)
On 8 Feb. James Morris of 20FG downed 3 FW-190s in a single combat,
involving tight turns (in which the P-38's maneuvering flap setting [8
degrees extension] was used) and an Me-109 as returning home, the first
quadruple kill for an 8AF fighter.  All kills were made with dead astern
shots.  Morris missed all his deflection shots. Interestingly, two of the
FWs were first encountered head-on and Morris was able to reverse and
maneuver onto their tails while they tried with all their might to get on
his--and failed. Three days later he downed an Me-109, making him the
first P-38 ace flying out of England. (He would score a total of 8
victories before being shot down on 7 July, the highest score of any
UK-based P-38 pilot.)

364FG arrived in UK in Feb., '44.  Led by Col John Lowell, who had helped
develop the P-38 at Wright-Pat, on its first mission over Berlin on 6
March, he downed 2 Me-109s, and two more on 8 March.  On 9 March he downed
an FW-190.  He was eventually to tally 11 kills in the P-38, but several
were downgraded to probables after the war.
Col Mark Hubbel took over the 20th on 17 March.   He believed P-38
excellent fighter against Luftwaffe and proved it by promptly shooting
down 2 Me-109 and sharing a third with his wingman.  He may have downed a
fourth Me-109 which he was seen pursuing as it streamed smoke in a dive.
He was last seen chasing yet another Me-109,  this time through the door
of a church.  Neither planes nor church survived the encounter.
During the late winter of 1944 ocurred the famous dual between a
Griffon-engined Spitfire XV and a P-38H of the 364FG.  Col. Lowell few the
P-38, engaging the Spitfire at 5,000 ft. in a head-on pass.  Lowell was
able to get on the Spitfire's tail and stay there no matter what the
Spitfire pilot did.  Although the Spitfire could execute a tighter turning
circle than the P-38, Lowell was able to use the P-38's excellent stall
characteristics to repeatedly pull inside the Spit's turn radius and ride
the stall, then back off outside the Spit's turn, pick up speed and cut
back in again in what he called a "cloverleaf" maneuver.  After 20 minutes
of this, at 1,000 ft. altitude, the Spit tried a Spit-S (at a 30-degree
angle, not vertically down).  Lowell stayed with the Spit through the
maneuver, although his P-38 almost hit the ground.  After that the
Spitfire pilot broke off the engagement and flew home.  This contest was
witnessed by 75 pilots on the ground.

Ultimately 7 P-38 FG were operational in northern Europe.  The 474th was
the only one to retain the P-38 till the end of the war.  As pilots grew
used to the plane and developed confidence in it, it successes against the
Luftwaffe grew.  On 7 July, '44, P-38s of the 20FG downed 25 out of 77 e/a
destroyed that day, the highest of any group.
The last UK-based P-38 ace was Robin Olds of the 479FG.  On 14 Aug., '44,
while flying alone, he encountered two FW-190s and engaged them in a
dogfight, shooting both down.
On 25 Aug, P-38s from 367 encountered FW-190s of JG-6, a top Luftwaffe
unit.  Wild, low-level  battle ensued in which 8 P-38s and 20 FW-190s were
down.  Five of the FWs were shot down by Capt. Lawrence Blumer.   367
received a Presidential Unit Citation as a result of this battle.
On the same day, P-38s from 474 shot down 21 FW-190s for the loss of 11
P-38s.  The same day Olds' of 479 downed three Me-109s in a running battle
that saw his canopy shot off.
On 26 Sept., P-38s of the 479 downed 19 e/a near Munster.  Shortly after
that most P-38s were gradually replaced by P-51s.
The last long-range bomber escort in northern Europe by P-38s was on 19
Nov. '44 when 367FG escorted bombers to Merzig, Germany.  FW-190s
attempted to intercept.  P-38s downed six with no losses.  No bombers were
lost either. It was a good way to end the P-38s air-superiority role in
northern Europe.

A good case could be made for the later
versions being not only the best American fighter of the war, but the best
piston-engine fighter, period.  It flew the longest escort missions of the
war (2200 miles round trip to the Borneo oil fields from bases in New
Guinea), successfully battling such very capable fighters as the Ki-44 over
the target.  A P-38 fighter group (the 1FG in the MTO) was the only USAAF
fighter unit  to win two Presidential Unit Citations within the space of 5
days (one PUC was for a long-range low level attack against Axis airfields
at Foggia, Italy flown from bases in North Africa, the other was for a
bomber escort mission during which some 30 P-38s fought off about 125
German fighters, not letting a single bomber be shot down).


Here's an excerpt of a Luftwaffe experte's  (Heinz Knoke, 52 kills, all in
the West) description of a duel with a P-38 (from "I Flew for the Fuhrer"):
"...At once I peel off and dive into the Lightnings below.  They spot us
and swing round towards us to meet the attack....  Then we are in a madly
milling dogfight...it is a case of every man for himself.  I remain on the
tail of a Lightning for several minutes.  It flies like the devil himself,
turning, diving, and climbing almost like a rocket.  I am never able to
fire more than a few pot-shots...."

On Nov. 13,  45 P-38 escorted bombers to Bremen. Only two bombers were lost to
fighter interception.  Throughout Nov and Dec, although the 8AF was sending
double the no. of bombers against German targets it had in the fall, losses
were never more than about 5 percent of the attacking force, and were often
only a mere handful--on the Dec. 13, 1943  mission against Hamburg, for
example, out of a force of 648 bombers, only 5 were lost. Many German fighter
formations approached the bombers on this day, but when they saw the fighter
escorts, refused to engage.
  At the end of Dec. Galland and  the staff of Jagdkorp I admitted that their
tactics against escorted bomber formations had failed.
So before the P-51 became a significant factor in the air war over Europe, the
Luftwaffe was stymied.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline GRUNHERZ

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P47, P51, P38...the German view......
« Reply #43 on: September 23, 2002, 01:06:07 AM »
(Lindol later crashed and was
killed while attempting to kill the fleeing crew of an Me-110 he had just
forced down in a low-level fight. The two men were floundering across a
snow-covered field and it appeared that Lindol attempted to hit them with
his props. His plane seemed to hit the ground, then bounce back up,
soaring into a chandelle, then falling off on its nose and diving straight
into the ground.)



What a diddlying amazinhunk. I'm glad he got killed.  And to think Americans and British  tried after the war to paint the LW as killers of parachuted pilots. Not to meantion P38 sucks.

Offline Glasses

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P47, P51, P38...the German view......
« Reply #44 on: September 23, 2002, 01:14:46 AM »
Yeah Virgil even though that 'd be the case most of the Fw190s were strictly ordered to engage the buffs and not the escort fighters, the bulk of them,making them easy target . The 109 was relegated to escort the bomber destroyers mainly(single and twin engined). Not until at least the invasion front they did decide to engage the escorts as they realized,although very late when  their force was depleted, that they couldn't destroy the vast majority of the buffs,they were just being overwhelmed daily.

There were plenty of single engine fighter wings in the Western Front but only  a little bit under half of those fighters were serviceable at any one time so the assumption that the LW pilots were outnumbering their allied counterparts  in the first months when the P38 was being sent to escort the bombers is false.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2002, 01:18:28 AM by Glasses »